Balance Changes Suggestions

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
21

imo heavy scorpion can gain +1 range to counter archers even without siege engineer. Chinese scorpion may be used more often.

It is understandable that people want to nerf chu ko nu. Chu ko nu has the shortest training time compared to other archer UU. Chu ko nu also has high dps and relatively cheap. While rattans, longbows, genoese xbow have long TT and slightly more expensive. Due to chu ko nu, chinese cant have good answer to onagers/bbc, which is nearly only counter for civs without good archers/skirmishers)

Chinese also has cheap cost of changing army composition with tech discount, making them very versatile. Imo, Chinese has the second best cavalry among archer civs. Chinese can do knight+archer easier than other civs. Civs with wide tech tree usually have slower eco but chinese does not. But I dont agree to nerf their eco, like reducing tech discount or initial no of villagers. It feels like taking away their identity.

Overall, I agree a slight cost increase in chu ko nu. Or remove some tech (eg. squires). Good UU + good eco +wide tech tree seems too good.

1 Like
22

thats not a bad idea, i wonder how it would translate for civs like khmer, or some TG where you’re stacking bonuses, like with celts. if anything i reckon it would be worth a try in PUP. i dono why they arent experimenting with more things like that

i think you have some good points here, a lot of them have been recommended by other people before.

but then there’s some “hard no” ones like this^^

and im usually the one advocating for changes, but berbers dont need a buff, and definitely not this big. if anything regional geni, which is buffed (wood/food decrease or speed or whatever)

you clearly hate bohemians, but that being said, look at some stats, if you want bohemians nerfed you HAVE to buff them elsewhere, because arabia is the most played map and they almost suck there already

i would love this change so much, i think it would be healthier for the community as well, with the LB buff. possibly just move the +1 range in imperial only, if they want it earlier they get the UT. and possibly give the normal LB +1 range. so in other words they still get the long range in castle age, but they must get the UU for it, and to compensate could reduce the tt on LB

i would prefer to see a buff anywhere except cavalry, i dont like the fact we’ve already leaned so hard into making it almost a one trick pony civ, maybe something for gunpowder? since they have a gp bonus and poor archer line

i like this as well, make it more useable for more people, but remove its oppression in certain situations

imo still too expensive for a castle age tech, if anything swap food for wood.

i would love that, even though others have said celts are good late game, they also have weak matchups (for example its a very skewed match v vikings in late game, and its not me saying that). and rely on specific maps. arabia not being one of them

still prefer to see the civ made more approachable to the broader population, change their starting vils

trash rams? my kneejerk reaction, is “no ways”

no ways. you would need to remove too many tech

i wish. again something that is obvious, but for some sedentary reason it never happened.

would certainly be a huge change, interesting to see it in the PUP and the amount of tweaking it would need. other changes are simpler and more likely to happen.

again changes for civs you dont like and doesnt link to their stats… if you’re going to nerf them this much (with the stone nerf) you’ll have to buff them as well

portuguese, persians, sicilians, spanish, viet, mayans, italians all seem pretty decent as well. throw it in the PUP

23

Ironic thing is, Poles and Bohemians are two of my favorite civs, I just feel they can be too strong in certain situations, so I really wouldn’t mind buffing them in others. Like, I wouldn’t mind giving Bohemians Thumb Ring, or Halb to Poles, maybe even consider Paladin if the discount went down to like 33% or something.

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24

I do not think they really need a change, but I like the idea of the new tb

The civ is good on arena but all these nerfs might be too much. Maybe the feudal buildings can keep their current price.

Personally, I really disagree with people asking for removing briton extra range. Maybe making LB (buufed with +1 range) much more accessible, like trainable in archery ranges, but I would keep britons as they are

Everyone hates flemish revolution, I am a bit more flexible. Btw, I like the UU change

I like the change, they need a buff, not sure if this is enough

This is minor. I dislike the UT so fine, but not that big deal

Very good, this civ needs a big nerf

No gold rams is game winning

Very minor to me

It might work, even if I would just hit one of their bonus directly

Ok even if I do not think this is enough

Everyone wants them different, but maybe this is too much to me… they are already a good civ

Elephants are asked since the beginning but no way we will see them for a chep vill civ

Omg this is a nerf overall for one of the worst civs

25

People who make balance change posts like this should be mandated to share their rating, and their win/loss for each civ.

I enjoy reading balance change suggestions but a lot of these are just wack. I’m on mobile so I can’t effectively read at reply, but let’s just do the ones remember from the top 4.

Berbers - A unique tech that requires to produce ‘x’ number of units to recover the investmest is boring af.
Britons - you’re basically totally dead if you don’t have two castles is what the balance changes here would do
Bohemians - might as well delete the civ if you want to change everything that makes them unique to make them more generic. I agree changes are needed but I don’t think these are them. Maybe the lost of the castle age goldmining upgrade.

Burgundian changes basically make means ~5 pointy horseys could kill a dozen paladins instantly. Seems OP.

26

I know how you feel.

You realize a lot of the UTs already kind of require that right? Off the top of my head, Szlachta Privileges, Chivalry, Anarchy, amongst quite a few more.

Explain to me how this is the case, I’m assuming you mean the Briton player needs two castles. M@A opening and archers are just as viable as currently, literally it just reduces the range on arbs by 1, and makes it easier to tech into longbows. I don’t how this translates to being basically totally dead.

Doesn’t really stop the monk rush or some of the other issues.

How on earth do you get that conclusion? I’m suggesting the Coustillier gets less charge damage, so that already means it can’t be an insta kill, and the UT suggestion does it as regular splash damage, so Palas will negate a fair bit of that with their armor.

27

Things I have established I no longer like about this, or never did:

  • The Berber UT replacement suggestion isn’t great, looking for suggestions.
  • Poles and Bohemians may have probably been overnerfed, and while I still support most of this, I wouldn’t mind something like giving Poles halberdier, and Bohemians Thumb Ring maybe.
  • The Indian changes are largely a bit off.
28

Hi!

Its been a while. Half the year almost. But im planning to come back here. And now im seeng that not many changed. So, I would like to propose my own Balance Changes, like I was doing in the past many times. Let’s begin.

Most of them are small changes, done to enhance Theme of the Civ.

Costs of proposed Unique Techs are subjective, so maybe will require some changes.

General Changes:

Eagle Warrior Armor class renamed to Scout Armor Class

Scout, LightCav, Hussar, Winged Hussar and also Magyar Huszar are now In Scout Armor Class

Scout and LCav Has +2 Scout Armor (0 in Dark Age)

Hussar and MHuszar have +4

WHussar and EMHuszar have +5

Hussar is too good for trash unit, now infantry will counter him harder.

Hand Canoneer

Rate of Fire from 3,45 to 3,15

Training time from 34s to 27s (the same as Arb)

Bonus dmg vs Rams from 2 to 4

Gain Bonus Dmg +2 vs Cavalry

But Bohemian Castle Age HC have previous stats.

We All can agree that HC is still underwhealming.

Steppe Lancer and Elite Steppe Lancer

Gain Bonus Dmg +3 vs Spears

Elite Steppe Lancer Upgrade from 900F 550G to 600F 500G

This is because Steppes needs a Niche, and this is to make them as good as Knights against Spears while being cheaper.

Battle and Elite Battle Elephant

Speed from 0,85 to 0,90

Blast Radius from 0,4 to 0,5

Scorpion

Bonus Dmg vs Eles from 6 to 10

Bonus Dmg vs Rams from 1 to 3

Gain Bonus Dmg +2 vs Cavalry

Heavy Scorpion upgrade from 1000F 1000W to 800F 800W

Bonus Dmg vs Eles from 8 to 12

Bonus Dmg vs Rams from 2 to 5

Gain Bonus Dmg +2 vs Cavalry

Siege Tower

Now costs 400W, gold cost removed

Gain ability to fire arrows, when garrisoned with archers Or Villagers (standard calculation like for Watchtower, but without bonus vs buildings) Range 4 (affected by Siege Engineers) RoF 2,0

Cant fire while moving (like Any unit In the game)

Camel

Bonus Dmg vs Cav from 9 to 12

Genitour

Is now regional unit for Berbers, Saracens, Spanish and Portuguese. Price from 50F 35W to 40F 35W

Cannon Galeon

Projectile Speed from 3 to 4,5

Bombard Cannon

Projectile Speed from 4 to 4,5

Towers and Donjons

No longer can be converted

Bombard Tower

Projetile Speed from 3 to 5

Gains Bonus Dmg vs Siege, +8

Petard

Is now also infantry (so can be garrisoned In buildings and siege weapons)

Civilizations specific changes:

Berbers

Khasbah is now Team Bonus, but reduced to 20%

Gain New Unique Tech: Hisan – Genitours and Trade Carts move 10% faster. Genitours can be trained by allies. Cost 200W 200G

Bohemians

Buildings are -75W (from -100W)

They have now only gold mining upgrades free

Loses Siege Engineers (because Houfnice) and Block Printing and Ilumination (because unit converted to trash shouldnt be FU)

Husite Wagon have now Minimum Range, but Elite Gains +1 range (from 6 to 7)

Britons

Town centers from 50%W cheaper to -100W Cheaper (36%)

Sheep bonus down to 20%

Burgundians

Food discount on Techs from 50% to 33%

Flemish Militia is now available In Town Centers In Imperial Age without Tech

Flemish Revolution cost now 1000F and additional 10G per Villager. Still converts All Vills to Flemish Militia, but now this can be reversed via additional button In Castles and Town Centers, when FM is garrisoned, but without returning the cost.

This would change Revolution from All-in offensive play to basicly defensive one, when Vills are turned into relativly strong unit In base to Deal with invaders, but can be reversed when threat is gone.

Burmese

Gain Siege Onager but loses Bombard Cannon

Gain New Civ Bonus: Mangonel-line upgrades cost Only 50%

Arambai is affected by Parthian Tactics

Speed back to 1,35

What is the Best friend of Monk? Siege! And Arambai is now weak, maybe this would help.

Byzantines

Gain New Civ Bonus – start with +100W and 25S

Greek Fire removed, is now In Civ Bonus (Fireships attack 20% faster and gain +1 range In Castle Age)

Have nev unique tech: Hetairoi – Militia-line and CavArchers +30HP. Cost 350F 300G

Gain Heavy Scorpion

Cataphract is now immune to All special attacks (Coustilier, Leitis, Obuch, and also trample from units. Not splash damage from Siege)

Byz lack early eco Bonus, and with this they may become S-Tier Water Civ with very early Dock and always stronger Fireships. This also give them possibility to play Infantry In Castle, unlike Any other Civ (yes, similarity between this UT and Viking Civ Bonus is intentional)

Celts

Stronghold removed.

They gain New UT: Kern – Skirmishers fire 20% faster. 250W 200G

Chinese

Chu-Ko-Nu Price from 40W 35G to 40W 40G (+5G)

UT Rocketry also adds +1 Range for Scorpions

Despite opinion, Chinese dont need big nerf, they are broken only on highest Elo

Cumans

No longer have Siege Workshop In Feudal Age. Now have other bonus – Rams cost -25%

Loses Champion

Elite Kipchak +5 HP

Steppe Husbandry affects also Kipchaks, but is moved to Imperial Age, price 500W 400G

Cuman Mercenaries removed

Now Castle Age Tech is Skythikon, Cav Archers cost 33% less gold 300W 200G

Etiopians

Shotel Warrior cost from 50F 30G to 45F 25G

Franks

Berry bonus from 15% to 10%

Cav HP no longer upplies for All Cav, reversed to Knight-line only bonus.

Cosmetic change: Throwing Axeman now have kite shield on back, and throws smaller proper Francisca

Incas

The Team Bonus is now: Archer Range Units dont have minimum range

Unique Tech In Castle – they Get former Celtic Stronghold

Gain New Civ Bonus: Infantry upgrades cost 30% less and are researched 50% faster.

Starts with two Llamas instead of one.

Kamayuk gains +3 ve Scouts

Slinger loses bonus dmg vs Condotiero

Indians

Elephant Archer upgrade from 1000F 800G to 750F 750G. Loses negative Cav Archer armor. Can garrisoned max 2 units (they dont have impact on his combat abilities)

Shatagni tech gives HC +1 range and +20% Accuracy

Italians

Codotiero cost from 50F 35G to 15F 55G

Gain +4 vs Scouts (Eagles)

Genoese XBow training time from 18s to 14s

Elite Genoese Xbow HP from 50 to 55

Bonus dmg vs Cav from 7 to 9

Bonus dmg vs Eles from 7 to 9

Pavise Tech affects also Skirms and Hand Cannons

Silk Road makes also Condotiero move 5% faster.

Japanese

Elite Samurai Speed from 1 to 1,1

Khmer

Speed bonus for Elephantos from 10% to 15%

Loses Husbandry

Lithuanians

Lost Fast Fire Ship

Magyars

Gain New Civ Bonus – Huntables last 15% longer

Mayans

Lasting loger resources no longer upplies to Bushes, Huntables and Herdables.

Loses Thumb Ring and Chemistry (why All civs have to have it?)

Elite Plumed Archer accuracy from 90% to 80%, Elite upgrade cost changed to 1000W 600G. Wood cost from Basic 55W (44W In CA, 39 in IA) to 65W (52 in CA, 46 in IA)

Loses Squires

Mongols

Loses Champion

Nomads upplies also to Town Centers.

Mangudai bonus dmg vs Siege from 3 to 2, EMangudai bonus dmg vs Siege from 5 to 4

Persians

Mahouts removed

War Elephant speed from 0,6 to 0,8

Gain New Unique Tech Aswaran: Cav Archers +1 range, 20% faster fireing 500W 400G

Poles

Gain 4G per every 10S, also gold is droped off with stone (when Vill drops 10S, drops also 4G), not constant trickle during mining, as it is now.

Szlachta Privlages removed.

Lechitic Legacy now gives trample to All Cavalry

Gain Plate Barding Armor

Obuch price from 55F 20G to 55F 30G,

New Unique Tech Obrona Potoczna: Spear-line +3MA

Gain Atonement, but loses Fervor

As you can see, I nerfed Poles Castle Play, but Buffed their Later Imperial.

Portuguese

Got New Civ Bonus: Docks support 5 population

Gain Squires

Gain Parthian Tactics, but loses Cav Archer (remember, Portos have Genitours now)

Organ Gun accuracy from 50% to 65% EOrgan Gun gain additional 2 bullets

Arquebus fixed, but no longer speeds up cannonballs (no need, as they have faster bullets now), speeds up small projectiles +1,5 tho

Saracens

Team bonus is now Transportships have double HP and +5 Carry Capacity

Archer bonus vs buildings is Civ Bonus now (I feel like still is too good stack this bonus with other Archer civs)

Madrasah have secondary effect – Monastery techs Are researched 66% faster

Cosmetic change: Change Mameluke skin to Armored Camel (dromader) Raider with javelins. All stats remains the same.

Sicilians

Serjant cost from 60F 35G to 55F 30G

Hauberk affects Serjants too

First Crusade Removed

Replaced by Tech Subventio Generalis: Every 10th Serjant has his gold cost removed 250F 100G

Slavs

Rename to Ruthenians

Orthodoxy now gives Monks +6/6 armor and additional +6 Monk Armor

Druzhina cost from 1200F 500G to 1000F 500G

New Bonus: Siege Workshop is 33% cheaper

Spanish

Building speed bonus is now +50% for economic buildings (except TC before Castle Age), stays +30% for military buildings

Civ Bonus Blacksmith Technologies dont cost gold replaced by: All Units military Technologies dont cost gold (includes Arson, Supplies, Bloodlines, Balistics, Chemistry, Conscription, and also Careening, Dry Dock and Shipwright)

Elite Conquistador Dmg from 18 to 19, RoF from 2,9 to 2,7

Missionary Speed from 1,1 to 1,2

Can collect relics (but while holding it, speed drops to 0,7, mean Speed of normal Monk)

Faith regenreation speed for Missionary + 20%

Cannon Galeon gain Ballistics and additional +6 Ship Armor, In place of faster bullets (Because they are now faster for everyone)

Turks

Jannisary Training Time from 17s to 20s

Vietnamese

See enemy positions on the start is now Team Bonus

Cen recruit Imperial Skirmisher is now Just for Viets

Paper Money have additional effect – Civ gain 1W per every 1G

Fell free to crush this ramblings with critique. Enjoy!

2 Likes
29

Even though I don’t agree with some of your changes, Some of your ideas are quite interesting, like Cataphract one. But I am not sure whether it is good for balance.

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30

i’m okay with this change, but +4/5 would mean only militia line does bonus damage to them.

nah, HC are fine as is now.

not a fan of this either, camels are already cheaper and train faster then cavalry as is.

i think that’s an overnerf.

TC bonus doesn’t need to be hit at all for these guys.

I think this change is unnecessary, the only problem with Burgundians now is Flemish Revolution

I think that’s a massive buff, gives them some of the best cav archers in the game. not to mention the militia line buff, and its awfully cheap for the effect it gives.

why is this change necessary?

I Don’t think they need both nerfs - just hit one of them and they become not problematic.

thats a pretty big nerf for a civ that isn’t problematic at m.

and this civ is now dead.

that new UT is weak as heck, every 10 serjeant losing its gold cost means you have to buy 40 serjeants just to make your gold back, not to mention the food cost.

2 Likes
31

I would recommend leaving the Berbers, Bohemians, Britons, Celts, Chinese, Ethiopians, Japanese, Saracens, and Slavs alone. For one thing, it is easier to work with a smaller set. For another, they are quite solid, even with their flaws.

Your change to the Burgundians would make the Flemish Militia tech unplayable in 1v1, where certainty matters a great deal. By simply allowing the creation of Flemish Militia without the tech, you change the nature of the technology dramatically. I would not touch their food discount, as it is both a boon, and a bust when playing against other players.

The Burmese Arambai is a wildcard unit that is difficult to balance. I would not try to do too much at a time with it. Losing the BBC would remove an option.

That Roman resource bonus would be an incredible boon in the hands of the right player, but if you are going for towers, 50 stone would better suit them. The principal problem with the Greek Fire was less that it was a unique upgrade, and more that its accuracy was poorly described by that word.

The Cuman Ram bonus would be scandalously helpful. Kips are some of the deadliest uniques in the right hands, buffing them may not be wise. I am a rare person that has no issues with mercenaries, other than it should be free.

That new Inca team bonus would not be terribly helpful. The two llamas would have a hefty impact. Kamayuks are tough units as they are when used correctly.

Elephant Archers are amazing team game units.

Do not make Condos tougher to produce, they are in a very special and unique place in game. Increasing the life of Genoese Xbows would make one of the most dangerous archer units in the game more dangerous. The change to Pavise could sharply affect 1v1 play, and the silk road bonus would be extreme in team game play.

The Mayans need some strong changes, but they are also a remarkably fragile civilization in how they are built. Losing Squires and Thumb Ring alone would sharply impact their performance. Archer civilizations predate Thumb Ring and perform just fine without it.

The Poles are meant to be a sharply difficult Castle Age opponent, who need to try to get the kill in the Early Imp at latest. The Idea of a Polish Winged Hussar with Plate barding is monstrously terrifying.

Lowering the Serjeant cost would be something. Be careful when buffing the Sicilians, because they do have much in their favor.

I see that youa re quite passionate about the Spanish and should put your focus into patching them up.

Your Janissary change would hurt the Turks on Arena, which is their preferred map.

By swapping around the team bonus with Imperial Skirmisher, you have actually weakened the Vietnamese as a team player. Imperial Skirmishers can be highly useful to a side that is struggling to fend off a deathly push, while the other side is making their own push. They are cheap, easy to toss in, and no one cares if they die. Only the Turks really lose out. By contrast, the enemy location bonus is easily used by signaling. I do not quite understand the other Vietnamese change.

2 Likes
32

I think other users will remind you about how good or bad your suggestions are, so I’ll just mention a few that impressed me.

It is OP, and also makes the Sipahi like a fool hopelessly.

This kind of novelty is more suitable for the effect of the UU of a new civilization.
Cataphract is good enough to not need it at all.

Wow you’ve proposed so many radical changes to other civilizations, and you’ve almost left the Japanese alone. Katapatoru is a fabrication based entirely on 0% historical facts. As a UT it’s a shame.

33

Eh tbh the civ is still missing blast furnace and bloodlines so it isnt that OP

34

Think about the effect and cost of Sipahi.
For such a small cost to get such a powerful effect, that’s why I’m talking about OP.
More importantly, I don’t think a UT should exactly duplicate or even outperform another UT’s effect, which is why I say it makes the Sipahi like a fool.

In addition, the lack of those techs is to balance other existing powerful civ bonuses, so it should not be considered balanced to further grant such a powerful tech.

1 Like
35

Also +30 HP is just unnimaginative, Vikings already have extra HP on Infantry, Turks/vietnamese on cavalry archers.

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36

I like your idea. Militia line need some bonus damage to scout line to make them more viable in late game gold-limiting situation.

HC buff are more than enough now. Some gunpowder civs are too good on closed map (Turks,Bohemians) and I don’t want buff them more.

I also like this change

Scorpion also need help. good change.

They already seen a lot. Why they need buff?

You can just research murder hole that even monk right under the tower don’t have a chance. Unnecessary change. If you can’t snipe monk and also no murder hole, it can be punished hard for conversion. But I personally cannot see any game of Tower conversion.

37

That seems more like big nerf for me. BBC is strongest seige that counter all other seige and definitely more useful than Seige onager, which has very niche use.

Wow. That change make them absolute trash.

Why they need to lose champion? they don’t need in most matchup but they need against Goths. Just make them badly countered by goths in late game?

Also Mangudai don’t need more nerf. They are worse than Magyars, Turks, Tatars Cav Archer against archer and they can snipe seige as specialized UU.

38

Considering the direction you just sparked the topic to move in, I think you would be better off reposting that comment as an actual topic, and maybe deleting it here.

39

Tbh, sipahi is also cheap compared to its effect and cheapest among Cav Archer UT (350F 150G). I agree that design is fool and weird for civ missing BL and don’t mean to CA civ. But it definitely neither overshadow Sipahi nor overpowered.

40

Welcome back

You have proposed a lot of them, I want to focus on the one I would like to discuss more

I like the change, even if there might be other options to fix them. However not sure if the UT has to be that one.

Ckn is OP, a nerf is needed. I would aslo hit their eco since they are really good atm.

I like this a lot

The civ needs a defensive fix to survive the early stages. Let me steal the suggestion from a guy in another discussion: pike/skyrms bonus like Lithuanians/Byzantines, e.g., extra bonus damages or improved training speed.
A trash bonus like this also partially compensates the fact that they miss halbs.

Here I disagree. That tech is almost a signature for the civ

I like this, especially the building speed boost. The civ bonus change is ok, even if I would follow the same reasoning of Italians. The civ needs a defensive way to survive the early stages, so instead of the other military technologies, I would extend the no-gold part to pike/skyrms upgrades.

1 Like