Balance for Tatars and Cav archers civs in general

Hello every one, Greetings;

I have a suggestion for August patch here but it is about cavarly archers. The cavarly archers take 34 seconds as a training time, it is really long time when we compare it with other units training time!!! I think for cav archers civs it is not fair especially the Tatars since they don’t have cav archers bonuses like the Mongols or Huns except the thumb ring free and parathian tactic and to be honest this is not too much. Mongols cav archers fire 20% faster, Huns have cheaper Cav archers, Cumans have faster cav and unique tech that makes training units 50% faster. I think Tatars should have training time bonuse for Cav archers to be 26 or 28 sec if not for all cav archers civs at least for the Tatars for more balance
The Tatars civ was classified as cavalry archers civ, but when we compare it with other cav archers civs we find they don’t have that much bonuses for their cav archers except the free thumb ring because the parthian tactic is imperial tech so it is not useful that much.

I am talking about the Tatars cav arch comparing with other cav arch civs. The 25% hill bonus is not that much because not all the time you have a hill to fight on it!!! And the free thumb is weaker than 20% fire for the mongols and not that much comparing to 10% disscount for the huns in the castle or 10% more speed for the cumans. I am talking about bonuses that will be immediately appeared once you reached the castle age and once the orher cav arch civs have researched the thumb ring or the parthian tactic what the specail for the Tatars except the silk armor?! I am talking about features here but not about free or not free techs.

so i have this suggestion for the Tatars:

-cavalry archers have 25% hp or cost -15%
-cavarly archers training time 20% faster
-Remove the free parthian tactic and make it with cost.
-Steppe lancers for all their civs must be cheaper (60 food, 35 gold).
-Flamming camel can be training without the unique tech in the imperial age.

I think if this has been done for the Tatars it will be good like other cav archers civs, like Mongols, Cumans, Huns.

So what do you think?


Fast training cavalry Archers is held by Cumans


That is not a huge deal. If I want to produce CA faster, I built another Archer Range.
Free Thumb Ring is really good, you save a lot of Ressource and time. I think it would be better give Silk Road additional Melee Armor. That buff Tatars more, this civ need a descent buff.


And here is the question, why i must build a 2nd arch range?! You just said it because they have really long time compare with other units thats don’t need other buildings or for their civs bonuses, for example the Huns’s stables work 20% faster!!! The steppe lancer in mongols have 30% hitpoints and it’s training time 24 sec!!! When you want to talk about training time don’t talk about build another building because this is not a solution.

If Tatars need another buff it definitely shouldn’t be related to another cav archer related one. Perhaps a general cav archer unit buff itself but any more cav archer focus would make Tatars one dimensional


You always need a second Archer range. Nobody goes for 1 Archer range if you try to mass units.
Sure it would help Tatars but nothing that I would say it could be a minor buff. Castle unit is something else then you are right.


Having those tech for free it’s actually a huge deal, especially TR, since CA before than are the unit with the lowest accuracy.

Also, consider that it’s less idling time for ranges.

Lastly, tartars CA deals more damage from high ground.

Which is completely and utterly useless, as Cumans don’t get bracer.

However, Cavalry Archers still train a second faster than regular archers, so I don’t see the issues here.
Tartars will become a well balanced Civ once the Steppe Lancer is redeemed and an actual useful, but not OP unit.

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Tatar are in the worst the 3 civs together with ports and korrans.

Let’s tatars create sheep in their town center.
25f and 7 sec train time. You can enable it in the scneario editor by trigger researching the tech “enable sheeps”

It wouldn’t be more broken as malay fishtrapes (unlimited source of food) and requires constant attention unlike farming, takes away tc train time for villagers.

Maybe allow the training in the mill instead. Anyway I think it would be unique, can’t make tartar worse, and not OP.

I know many people here don’t like new things, because they are afraid of what the don’t know. But I would like to encourage you first to just try it out once though the scneario editor.


I’m pretty sure it won’t help, producing sheep instead of villagers does not make the option more attractive. Better to create vils and and go for farms.

About a month ago, my suggestion was to give Tatars free Bloodlines. It’s a nice buff for Feudal Age and don’t think it’s too OP since every other can have this only a bit later.


It creates in the mill it wouldn’t have to be an alternative

I don’t think cav archers train too slowly. What usually prevents you from getting a lot of them in early castle age is the high cost, escpecially because it’s difficult to boom when spending so much wood on units.

Still, a lot of players have been complaining that cav archers feel weaker for hit and run tactics (although their frame delay hasn’t changed on paper at least) ever since DE and I tend to agree here but tbh I can’t really tell anymore if that isn’t just because I heard that so many times by now.

And Tartar cav archers are pretty good within the group of cav archer civs so if anything was changed about them I also think it should be a general thing about cav archers. Tartars already have enough bonuses on them and they have one of the best early castle age xbows so you don’t need to rush to ca, at that point.

That’s totally not true. They aren’t the best, I’ll give you that but they are pretty decent. The sheep bonus helps nicely for any feudal opening there is. It’s a bit tricky to use and I don’t think people really figured out how to best use it. It even allows for some pretty unconventional builds like producing a couple of scouts and immediately adding an archery range for archers which I don’t think other civs can really do this way. Your xbows in early and mid castle age are basically like ethiopian xbows and you have strong cav archers at all stages of the game (contrary to most of the other ca civs). Great hussars, good siege, camels and even hc and let’s not forget about the hill bonus.


Tatras are currently sitting at 45,44% winrate on 1v1 all elo. Only Koreans and ports are below.

For 1250-1600 only they are even the worst civ at the moment. 1600+ data is unusable at the moment (too less data to filter statistical noise) but a trend of being around 45% or lower can be extrapolated when locking at past patches.


There have been so many discussions about winrates and I honestly don’t get why people are still arguing with that. The list of arguments why win rates tell very little about how good a civ performs is very long. So I’ll just say this: According to stats, Vietnamese and Sarcens are among the worst, yet in the most recent ara tournament they have been drafted among top 7/8.


imo saracens are similar to chinese, except they have an even higher skill threshold, the chinese start is incredibly crippling for lower level players, just like the market abuse isnt that helpful for most players.

saracens arent necessarily a strong civ, they just have a strong/abusable mechanic,(which others here have pointed out) actually failed when viper tried to prove how good this mechanic is…

i think a lot of people here will also agree that something similar happens with CA… most players arent able to fully leverage the use of the CA due to the high response time (whether its from effective frame delay, attack animation or stutter (omfg i hate CA stutter))

so pros can better leverage CA than most skilled players so tatars arent seeing the same effectiveness due to their reliance on CA to access their civ buffs…

Yeah it’s basically high risk, high reward. Makes it quite difficult to exactly estimate how strong the civ is from on overall perspective.

Sounds reasonable. And the stutter is indeed super annoying. But I think Tartars even are the easiest civ to play cav archers with because you don’t need to micro as much. They fire faster and with 100% accuracy so you can just sneak behind a woodline and let them attack on stand ground or camp on hills.

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Part of the problem with looking at stats will always be that the pros and the normal/average player play the game at vastly different skill levels. For the developers this makes things difficult because a civ that for the average player feels weak or underpowered, does not necessarily feel the same for the pros (take Saracens for example). When making balance changes the devs have to take this into account because if they nerf/buff a civ too much it can become broken at a pro level but only be considered average at the lower levels.
One of the things that stats helps with is seeing an average of all skill levels instead of just one particular one. So yes win rate is affected by things like play rate, map, player elo, player skill, and even things as esoteric as the time of day, but for all of its flaws if it is averaged over enough games, it does give a good snapshot of how a civ is doing at all skill levels and can be an indicator of a civ needing a buff or nerf to get the civ to a point where the winrate approaches 50 percent (which is generally the ideal).


tatars are strong enough, you are underestimating the free Thumbring, that makes their xbows stronger in early castle age than ethiopians or others , their lasting herdables grants them a slight advantage to get more food and reach feudal or even fast castle, their drush is really good, if you start making CA with them, you are using the civ wrong, cav archer is not attractive in DE in general not only for one civ, not even with huns is as powerful as it was once, arambai fires faster and even has more accuracy, however the strength of the cav archer is worth in imperial age, but not before.

You can destroy anyone with xbow+micro abusing the thumbring for free, try archs first then change the unit as the game goes, not everything has to be OP to be playable.

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??? To me it’s pretty obvious that cav archers are always more accurate that arambai. Regarding their reload rate they are equal.


Agree but think he talking effective frame delay

Since CA rof is faster with thumb ring.