As the title says, here are some suggestions. English is not my first language so please bear with me if I make any grammar or puctuation mistakes.
First I’ll start with my 2 favorite civs: teutons and indians.
Teutons
This civ was conceived as a defensive powerhouse, doing a pretty good job fulfilling its role. Sadly, after The Forgotten expansion came out, it was left behind. The main reason being that Teutons were too slow. And I’m not referring to their movement speed. Their offensive potential and civ growth were too slow compared to new civs which had fast-paced offensive playstyle (Magyars, Indians, Ethiopians, Berbers, Burmese, Cumans, etc). Then aoe2 DE came out, and Teutons received some new improvements to make them more offensive and fast-paced in castle age. However those changes, while they make their knight rush more effective, don’t address real teuton problems: 1. being too rigid. 2. getting their hp chipped away due to their slow movement speed. 3. being gold-hungry starting from castle age/early imperial age. In other words, this seems lazy design.
In particular, I’m talking about their +2 meele armor (total) bonus for barracks and stable units. It’s true it reinforces their identity as an “armored” civ, but it still doesn’t solve their problems. It’s redundant and just makes them better where they already are. The role of heavy meele infantry is already fulfilled by their teutonic knights. It’s been almost a year since that new bonus was introduced and, clearly, knights benefit the most from it. Now, I like that +1 extra meele armor for knights in castle age. I admit it’s a huge help and boosts the Teutons’ offensive capabilities. But I’m against the second +1 they get in the imperial age. They are already tanky. Why not focus on their pierce armor. Their paladins don’t have husbandry and their slowness makes them lose significant hp before they can close in and fight archers. Cavalry is supposed to kill archers to protect infantry, but teuton paladins are more vulnerable to (post)imperial ranged units than other cavalry. They don’t have light cavalry, and their slow scout cavalry can’t even dream of surviving imperial age archers. The answer is skirmishers without thumb ring and bracers + siege onagers, scorpions or bombard cannons. Then again, they need a lot of gold. I propose adding gold return for destroyed siege units as a passive form of gold sustain. It also synergizes well with the ironclad tech.
- Leave their tech tree as it is.
Civ bonus
- Barracks and Stable units receive +1 meele armor in the castle and imperial age (+2 total).
Replaced by: Stable units receive +1 meele armor in the castle age and +1 pierce armor in the imperial age. (+1/+1 total) - Murder Holes and Herbal Medicine are free.
Replaced by: Siege workshop units return 20% gold when they are destroyed.
Historical background: During the middle ages, siege became the primary means of warfare. The vast majority of battles were fought in defense of or the attempt to take fortifications. One example is the siege of Kaunas. The Teutonic Order built ramparts and canals to cut off the Lithuanian Kaunas castle from the mainland. They also built trebuchets and siege towers to overrun the fortification. The defenders managed to push away the siege engines and even destroyed some of them. The Order reacted quickly and rebuilt more engines using the remains; the knights kept pounding the outer walls until they finally collapsed. But Vaidotas would rapidly repair the damage too. The siege lasted a whole month until the Teutonic Order eventually overcame the Lithuanians.
Indians
They are the second victim of lazy and mediocre design. The problem here is that there wasn’t just one “Indian” civilization in medieval times. In the region, there were different cultures and several political groups. However, all of them had 3 things in common when it came to warfare: 1. fast infantry. 2. elephants. 3. archers. To be blunt, if you are going to set them up as an umbrella civilization, at least make it so the concept revolves around the things they have in common. Not just searching “medieval India”, and half-assing everything. I think Indians need a rework, but oh well. In this thread, I’m going to focus on the elephant archer.
Traditionally, there are 3 classic balance approaches: 1. Overpowering one aspect, then weakening gradually until it’s balanced. 2. Underpowering one aspect, then strengthening gradually until it’s balanced. 3. Doing both at the same time but on different aspects.
As an example for the third approach, let’s take a look at tyranitar from the pokemon franchise. In the games, this pokemon is considered exceptionally strong despite being a normal pokemon (a pseudo-legendary, as they call it). On paper, it seems above the rest: it has superior hp, superior attack, superior defenses, mediocre speed, superior and versatile move pool (capable of using water, fire, ice, electric, steel, dark, rock, ground, ghost and dragon elements) plus a total of 600 (700 mega) stat points. Looks invincible, right? Well, no. Tyranitar can be 1 hit KOed by hitmonlee who only has 455 stat points. The thing is tyranitar is rock and dark type, which translates to 6 weaknesses and 1 double-weakness. Also, 4 of them are some of the most common types, so tyranitar can be countered in almost every duel. The elephant archer is in a similar situation. It has 5 armor classes, which means it has about 8 weaknesses. But the only good thing about it is its hp pool. Elephant archers don’t have the versatility tyranitar has. Because of this, some people consider them just damage-absorbing “walking towers”. Something they are not due to their low meele armor. Now, this leads us to a different question: What is the role of elephant archers? Their current “correct” role is very situational; only when Indians are facing specialized infantry civs like Goths, Japanese or Aztecs, and need hand cannoneers. In that case, elephant archers protect these arquebusiers. Basically, elephant archers are relegated to be the support of situational units. Other than that, they don’t have a real role. They don’t offer something more viable, that’s why elephant archers are underused. Besides, the Indian core is imperial camels followed by cavalry archers for mobility, and skirmishers as generic support. The elephant archer simply can’t keep up with their speed, and its cost ruins the unit production balance.
Unit production 1
Food, gold: imperial camels.
Wood, gold: cavalry archers.
Food, wood: skirmishers
Unit production 2
Food, gold: champions, imp camels
Food, gold: hand cannoneers, elephant archers
Food, wood: halberdier/hussars
Now, following the tyranitar example, the solution I propose is making elephant archers more viable in diverse scenarios by making them even weaker than they already are, but with versatility. Let’s start by giving them a role: in history, ancient Indians used elephants as a multi-purpose pushing force. Now they can do that but at the same time, they can be countered easily.
- Leave their tech tree as it is.
Elephant archer
Cost: 120 wood and 70 gold.
HP: 250/300 (elite)
Attack bonuses: ADDITIONAL +1 vs infantry. +3 vs unique units. +2 vs ships.
Pierce armor: 2.
Speed: 0.96.
Historical background: “An army without elephants is as despicable as a forest without a lion, a kingdom without a king, or as valor unaided by weapons”. Elephants were used in the ancient Indian army, irrespective of regions, dynasties, or points in time; their importance was never denied and continued well into the medieval period as well. The ready availability in the subcontinent of the Indian elephant, one of the three recognized subspecies of the Asian elephant and native to mainland Asia, led to its gradual taming and use in both peace and war. Capable of fulfilling a variety of military functions, the most important of which was the psychological impact it could cause.
Turks
The Turks’ overall power is fine. Their concept and design is fine. They are an imperial civ and their end-game is fine. Their only economic bonus is “gold miners work 20% faster”, which isn’t useful before the castle or imperial age. But ok. Their real problem is that their growth is not smooth at all. And I’m not talking about their offensive power. They get light cavalry upgrades for free, which is supposed to serve as a boost to their light cavalry rush and help them buy enough time to get to the imperial age. Their problem is their defensive capabilities from dark age until middle-late castle age. While they can be played like any other civ until feudal age, in castle age they become stagnant when it comes to answering an attack due to their lack of pikemen and elite skirmishers upgrades. This also plays a part in their decline in post-imperial, when gold is exhausted. So, in one hand, this imperial civ has slow growth and is prone to get stuck in the castle age. On the other hand, even after reaching the post-imperial age, a deadlock will be a defeat. Just a matter of time. Hussars with +1 pierce armor certainly help, but it’s not enough in trash wars.
It’s clear Turks can’t receive pikemen and elite skirms for balance reasons. So instead of just +1 PA only for the light cavalry line, I propose increasing spearmen, skirmishers, and light cavalry HP by 10 points. This would increase their survivability against meele and ranged attacks slightly in the castle age, while keeping the usual spearmen and skirmishers low stats and bonuses compared to their upgraded versions. At the same time, they’ll be more useful during post-imperial. Generic spearmen/skirmishers < Turkish spearmen/skirmishers < pikemen/elite skirmishers.
- Leave their tech tree as it is.
Civ bonus
- Scout Cavalry line gain +1 pierce armor.
Replaced by: Scout Cavalry line, spearmen and skirmishers gain +10 hit points in the castle age.
Historical background: Orhan Gazi (Orhan I) organized a standing army paid by salary rather than looting of fiefs. The infantry was called yayas and the cavalry was known as musellems. The force was made up of foreign mercenaries for the most part, and only a few Turks were content to accept salaries in place of timars. Foreign mercenaries also received free clothes and weapons from their Ottoman commanders; as a result, this irregular army had better equipment than others in the region.
Spanish
The spanish are fine. Just like the turks, they are fine as they are now. The only thing that needs a little fix is their conquistadors.
- Leave their tech tree as it is.
Civ bonus
- New: Human gunpowder units (conquistadors and hand cannoneers) gain +5% accuracy in the castle and imperial age (+10% total).
Historical background: The tercios (1534-1704) were a famous military elite of the Spanish empire. Over one and a half centuries, they were known as the finest European infantry force and were the first to effectively mix pikes and arquebuses. The tercios were professional soldiers and volunteers in permanent ranks. They were regular units always at arms, even under no imminent threat. It was said the tercios were so proficient at the usage of their arquebuses, that they could reload and fire accurately twice before the smoke of the first shot disappeared.
Incas
Curious how most of the worst designs are from The Forgotten expansion. The Incas are the third victims of mediocre design. They desperately need a full rework; even more now that their villagers no longer get blacksmith upgrades in the feudal age, and the devs are so hellbent on getting rid of walling and tower rushing. As a sign, towers were nerfed when DE came out. But hey, all the current Inca civ bonuses are aimed for tower rushing:
-start with a free llama: 6 villagers eating a llama results in 88 food = 1 extra villager can be sent forward in feudal age for tower rushing.
-villagers benefit from infantry blacksmith upgrades: Sturdy villagers to attack and defend while building towers. Or just extra defense in case they get rushed.
-houses support 10 population: Everytime you save 25 wood and construction time. Just enough wood to sustain towers, and villagers can spend some more seconds on something else.
-Buildings are 15% stone cheaper: Towers.
Basically, with the last nerf, Incas only have 2 bonuses until castle age: the llama and 10 pop houses.
This begs the question of what is this civilization’s role in-game. I imagine someone in the dev team thought “Incas = Macchu picchu, stone… so tower rushing” during the concept design. And now due to balance reasons and easy gameplay, they want to get rid of tower rushing. Which is the same as getting rid of Incas. Sure, they can still work and act as a generic civ, without bonuses. But that also means they have no identity.
Another problem the incas have is that they lack gold sustain. New world civs are some of the most gold-hungry in-game; on top of that, they are also gold dependant. Aztecs can handle this thanks to their extra carry capacity (gold miners) and +33% gold from relics. Mayans can deal with it using their 2 bonuses: resources last +15% (gold mines) and foot archers discount. However, Incas have no way to sustain their gold other than having more gold miners and creating more trade units in team games. Both options take time and population space. Incas might even be more gold hungry than Aztecs and Mayans because most of the units in the Incan core army require gold (siege, eagles, slingers, archers, champions, and kamayuk). Because of these factors, tower rushing was fundamental as a mean of solving future problems of gold shortagefor the Incas. Mainly by pressuring the enemies, causing damage to buy enough time to surpass their development, and ending the match as fast as possible. Something that definitely can be done since Incas have a solid tech tree and are also known as a jack of all trades, master of none.
What we can do is keep their tech tree and turn it into their new identity: versatility. If Aztecs focus on infantry and Mayans focus on archers, then incas will NOT focus on defense. They will focus on versatility to make the best out of their unique units and unique techs. In other words, incas will be a countering civ with their strength escalating slowly in different stages of the game. I propose:
- Leave their tech tree as it is.
- New unit: inca llama (50 food)
Civ bonus
- Incas start with a free llama.
Replaced by: Incas start with 1 inca llama.
-Gameplay: Results in 44 food.
-Historical background: Incas raised llamas as livestock.
- Villagers benefit from Blacksmith infantry upgrades.
Replaced by: All resources are gathered 10% faster. Except for farms, fish traps and fishing (villagers).
-Gameplay: Incas need a general economic bonus to help them set up their economy early and take a fast-paced playstyle like Aztecs and Mayans. This economic bonus is a weakened counterpart of the Aztecs’ extra +3 carry capacity to all resources, or the Mayans’ all resources last +15% longer. It’s also a very weak version of specialized economic bonuses others civs have (+20%). It’s technically a unique bonus since no other civ has a faster gathering rate to many resources like this, despite being at a low rate. Furthermore, farms, fish traps and fast fishermen were excluded for balance reasons and to avoid repetition (Slavs and Indians).
-Historical background: The Incas excelled at farming, but they also placed great emphasis on storing agricultural products, constructing thousands of storage silos (qullqa or qollqas) in every major center of their empire and along their extensive road system. Food could be stored for up to two years in these granaries before spoiling due to the ventilation and drainage. Dried meat (jerky), freeze-dried potatoes (chuño), maize, and quinoa were among the crops stored in large quantities for the provisioning of the Inca army and officialdom and as a hedge against poor crop years. Careful records were kept of the products and quantities stored on the knotted cords, called quipu, which the Incas used instead of a written language. On the desert coast extensive irrigation works were necessary for agriculture. Cotton was a major crop near the coast and coca was a major crop in the humid lowlands of the Amazon basin. The population on the coast was more specialized than the highland population with communities of farmers, fishermen, potters, weavers and others. Instead of self-sufficiency trade was extensive among the various producers. Unlike the highlands, the lowlanders utilized shells and gold as a form of money. However, in the coastal communities, the same emphasis on collective management and reciprocity prevailed as in the Andes.
- Houses support 10 population.
Replaced by: Eagle warriors are 5%/15%/25% cheaper in the feudal/castle/imperial age.
-Gameplay: Incas need some sort of escalating strength that can support aggressive and defensive playstyles. Aztecs have fast production of military units and Mayans cheap foot archers (including plumed archers). Here Incas will have a weaker discount which only affects eagles. Also, Incas have the weakest eagles in most situations, except for when they are facing archers.
-Historical background: As the Inca Empire grew, an army created by a loose confederation of peasant warriors was replaced by one of professional officers. Inca battalions contained permanent staff (generals and officers) and non-permanent personnel composed of drafted hatun runas (common men), who would be serving their military mita (public service), comparable to mandatory military service or the draft. Once the mit’a was fulfilled, each hatun runa would return to their respective ayllu (community).Each battalion was made up of a single ethnic group, the whole group being directed by a kuraka (warlord) of the same ethnicity. In the event that a kuraka fell in battle, a replacement was appointed from within the same ethnic group. In order to prevent rebellions and to promote successful performance in battle, two battalions were formed per ethnic group, each one under the command of a general (and both under the command of the kuraka). Promotion was given to the general who gave the greatest display of bravery on the battlefield, which led to competition between the two battalions. Commoners were considered to have fulfilled their military service obligations after six or seven years. The professional officers, however, were permanent soldiers, paid by the state. This military caste enjoyed several privileges, with the state paying for their food, clothing and housing costs, as well as supplying gifts such as coca, jewellery, and wives.
- Buildings cost -15% stone.
Replaced by: Trade units move 35% faster. Stacks with the Caravan tech.
-Gameplay: This is a civ bonus useful only in team games. Since the Incas’ new role is a fast countering civilization. They’ll need a lot of gold to train different kinds of soldiers to help their allies on different fronts. To fulfill their role, the incas will have to shift rapidly between training their core army and training the counter units to several enemies at the same time.
-Historical background: The Qhapaq ñan (royal road) was the Inca road system. It was the most extensive and advanced transportation system in pre-Columbian South America. It was at least 40,000 kilometres (25,000 mi) long. The roads were bordered, at intervals, with buildings to allow the most effective usage: at short distance there were relay stations for chasquis, the running messengers; at a one-day walking interval tambos allowed support to the road users and the flocks of carrying llamas. Administrative centers with warehouses for re-distribution of goods were found along the roads. Towards the boundaries of the Inca Empire and in new conquered areas pukaras (fortresses) were found. The Incas used the road system for a variety of reasons, from transportation for people who were traveling through the Empire to military and religious purposes. The road system allowed for a fast movement of persons from one part of the Empire to the other: both armies and workers used the roads to move and the tambos to rest and be fed. It also allowed for the fast movement of information and valuable small goods which traveled through the chasquis. The Incas gave priority to the straightness of the roads, whenever possible, to shorten the distances.
Team bonus:
- Farms are built 100% faster.
Replaced by: Teammates start with 1 inca llama.
-Gameplay: Results in 44 food for teammates. Coupled with the inca civ bonus, incas will end up with 2 inca llamas.
-Historical background:
Saracens
The saracens are fine. They just need a little tweak.
Civ bonus
- Camel units are now granted +10 hit points.
Replaced by: Camels and mamelukes are created 10% faster.
Technologies
- Zealotry: Camels and mamelukes +20 hit points. Costs 500 food and 450 gold.
Replaced by: Camels and mamelukes +30 hit points. Costs 700 food and 700 gold.
Unique unit
- Mamelukes cost 55 food and 85 gold.
Replaced by: Mamelukes cost 65 food and 75 gold.
-Gameplay: Pretty much everything self explanatory
-Historical background: Represents their zealotry better, and reinforces their in-game concept as fanatic camel riders.