Except Mongols. Or Berbers against a Mongols player. Or any civ on arena against a smush or a trush.
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No. The camels waste their shots unless you have insane micro. Mali champ loses to frank champ and paladin.
I would have to imagine they were beyond any of our skills to micro away from paladins⊠Unless a castle was involved i canât see this happeningâŠ
Maybe they were already ahead?
Which will waste how many bullets on paladins?
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two distinct purposes
Which two? just +1 damage, which is useful mostly against Paladins pretty much.
The range is just an overkill.
Having more range is not basically a nerf.
It is a nerf, partially, you can try it youserlf, they simply miss their shots, unless against a big collusion size. sadly.
The civ is already missing Bombard Cannon, which means enemy siege is a threat to which the hussar is the only response.
Youâre right this time, I wish I could accept it, but considering the farming bonus the Hussar has become the main go to, itâs so sad, the civ has a lot to offer, so we can let them have Hussar, yet fix the farming bonus which is still stronger than Slavs lategame.
Maybe they were already ahead?
Gbeto totally lose to Paladin or mass cavalier the more established the game is, however in small masses, early Imp Iâve seen it works, I dont recommend it 
Perhaps the hardest unit to micro in the game.
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Same range as BBC is no joke. One extra damage against siege (which besides rams, tend to have an assailable, but high, level of pierce armor) also makes a big difference. Using longbows versus massed siege and using Arbs against massed siege is night and day.
I have tried it myself. The Indians have, without question, the best HC in the entire game. That extra range makes it way less clunky against ranged units and significantly more durable in general since it stands further out of harmâs way naturally. Thereâs no argument here.
Also in tight fights, itâs not a huge loss when the HC misses, especially when you have it massed, because half damage stray bullets are a thing. Youâd rather have the full damage, obviously, but it helps slightly to negate the penalty for micromanagement of large groups of HC. Micro tends to lead to a lot of overkill damage with ranged units and HC is a prime example. The missing bullets from the low accuracy tend to do an Organ-gun AOE effect, which mitigates the expected overkill waste a bit. Something to consider.
The only thing stopping you from accepting it is yourself. If you honestly think the Khmer needs something cut, come up with something else. This is a horrid idea.
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Sorry why does the SO not count as a counter to the short range GC as well as arbs? Coupled with the most easily FU monks to convert BBCsâŠ
Their eles take something like 160 arb shots iirc so itâs actually the pikes that are an issue so long as youâre aggressive.
I think the only thing burma canât counter is mangudai⊠With their - 3PA eskirm
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One extra damage against siege also makes a big difference
It doesnt. they melt Onagers easily, and do 1dmg to rams.
It only matters when facing Paladins, which makes them very niche.
the best HC in the entire game
I would accept it if it was +2 range.
Currently it makes them equal to Arbs and Skirms that shred them anyways.
The only thing stopping you from accepting it is yourself
Khmer is my favorite civ, I still believe that they need a further fix to their farms, the hussar nerf is just an attempt.
Sorry why does the SO not count as a counter to the short range GC as well as arbs? Coupled with the most easily FU monks to convert BBCs
That works on Arena smoothly, however what about the other maps, most maps are open.
On Arabia Onager should never be a win condition, itâs way too ambitious.
Their Ele die to Genoese.
So, not going to go over the âSame range as BBCâ point, just going straight to âArbs already kill onagersâ and leave it at that. Good to know youâre going to cherrypick whatever you want out of what I have to say and then ignore it.
Pushing the damage up on the unit from 3->4 (or 2->3 for SO) via the Longbow is significant. Doing so at an additional range is further, very significant. You not thinking so doesnât make you right. Against massed siege, the Longbow is an entirely different unit, especially against Koreans or Mongols. Practically, the Koreans matchup is justification by itself for the existence of the Longbow.
One final bit. Heavy scorpion projectiles carry onwards 11 tiles, regardless of where they are aiming. That means a Briton Arbalest will catch the tail end of the Heavy scorpionâs attack range even at maximum range for the Arbalest (an arbalest cannot engage a Scorpion mass without having incidental damage threatened) whereas the extra range of the longbow means that itâll attack from just outside of the carry range of the projectile, meaning your melee units (be it champions or Halbs) wonât provoke attacks that can harm your archers as long as you donât physically move the mass closer to the action against Scorpions. Thatâs a tiny tidbit that matters in a few rare cases.
They arenât supposed to be equals to the Arbs and the skirms. They arenât supposed to be a counter to archer units. Maybe if you tried using them where theyâre supposed to be used, you wouldnât be asking to push into outranging onagers.
Then stop apologizing for them. The Khmer are fine. You not thinking they are balanced does not make it so. They just got nerfed and even then I didnât think it was necessary because it was predicated on their teamgame performance which I thought (and still believe) to be vastly overrated due to their lack of options beyond the big fat stompies.
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Well the bonus affects all strategies so if some players only ever use it for one strategy they are doing it wrong, and not much can be done for them sadly.
Mangudai are kinda ridiculous. Some people criticize it for being too good, some think itâs a fine trade off for the Mongolâs bad midgame.
Pikemen work fine against hussars. Garland war eagles and champions destroy them.
Siege engineer onagers, elephants, and heck their skirms are slightly better than Frank ones.
Well there are several things to say about this. Light cav spam is powerful with every civ that isnât Teuton just because transforming that huge pile of food that you will eventually accumulate into a swarm of little buggers in your enemyâs eco is too good to pass up. And people donât stone wall enough in the late game so they are asking for it to happen. Another fact is that since there is only so much room in the tech tree and for different bonuses, some civs will have similar late games. Slavs have a similar hussar spam than Khmer but also a similar infantry+siege combo as Celts, and that is just one example.
Why are you forgetting the HCA :((
Ig? In the Khmerâs case, it was kinda needed for 1v1 play because their army was too expansive for a civ whose strongest eco bonus was skipping buildings that you might dearly miss later (getting scout rushed without having a barracks is no fun) In the Tatarâs case maybe less so because they did have an eco bonus.
Well Paladins donât win against heavy camels. Heck even Ethiopian ones counter them.
Now the big problem with a throwing axeman+champions combo is that every single camel civ has one or several ranged units that destroy them. Scorpions donât work either because almost all of them have BBC.
Teuton, Lithuanian, Slavs and in the near future Burgundian say hi.
OK lol this so blatantly false I canât imagine how you came to find it even remotely believable.
Mayan and Burmese say hi.
Oh and add Korean to the club. Who doesnât love having a 150 HP, 5 pierce armour unit right off the bat?
Speed an armour matters too. Plumes, rattans, and CA all have the bulk and speed to beat longbows.
Lol Hera would check the tech tree first because I bet he only knows about Arambai. He might be one of the best at this game, but with the numbers of times he pulled of feats such as trying to go for Slavs arbs, and his famous tactical pauses, he is noobier than us for the nerdy stuff.
If the enemy has the bucks to pay for paladins+champs, you will be able to afford gbeto+camels or camels+cavalier.
Well only way this could remotely work is if you have Kamandaran in castle age because you will need to have a dirt cheap unit to protect your eles, but since for some reason Table wants this tech in impâŠ
Only reason I said that is because you were throwing a tantrum about how halberdier kill camels. If I had tried to explain you that in order to protect their paladins with halbs the enemy would have to let them stick together and sacrifice all their mobility as a result, you would have went on a âone upmanshipâ rant yet again. The way you reacted when I mentioned how pretty much every halb+paladin civ, not only Franks, could give troubles to Malian, wonât help me change my opinion.
Well their additional range gives a free shot compared to generic HC so even if they miss more where is the harm, itâs still an upgrade. And bullets have a higher chance to hit another target when compared to arrows.
Well then again, too bad for these people. Next time you play against them, stone wall and laugh at them.
But they destroy champions while still doing more damage to cav than HC or Malian arbs so why not?
Burmese SO? At least youâve got your references right 11
Regardless, Burmese can try halberdier+siege against Italian.
Normal onager isnât too unrealistic on Arabia. less so than paladin+champs+axemen
too bad Korean can just make war wagons
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Same range as BBC
Okay, and? 12 range, 11 range, these are all overkill features, Onager has 9 range, and Cannon isnât something to fear off, and even then 11 range would do the job smoothlyâŠ
I dont think you understand how unchallenging Onagers are for mass Britons Archers. Itâs a matter of a single volley, doesnt matter if the damage is 33% or 50% bigger, it takes 1 volley, in a regular lines/Q formation, generic archers cant pull it off comfortably.
Heavy scorpion projectiles
Iâve never seen someone goes for Scorps against Britons, quite an absurd, a projectile needs the unit to attack something, Britons have a Single-unit, mono-composition, just like Celts Woadraiders, they can simply rely on Normal Archers to do everything for them, sadly.
The only issue is Rams, and luckily Britons have great Onagers and/or Infantry.
Why are you trying to justify Longbows, this kind of tech transition was always the luxurious among them all, no pro use them often.
I never said ele donât die to GC, i said they survive vs arbs. How does onager not counter GC? It still has the same massive splash and 2 extra range. If GC are still beating you then itâs a user issue or counter - counter issue
And i forgot burma has SE BBC as well to counter opposing BBC if really needed
Burmese still have bracer and Genoese xbows are capped at 7 range so their skirms beat Genoese xbows easily. Unless youâre Turks, your skirms are always good enough to use against archers, even if they might lose 1v1
Haha guys, 200 food unit is not expensive in castle age, who cares that monks are at their best at this stage
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Youâre kindof proofing @AllergicTable49âs point
At that point you just tone down the paladin production. Save some gold and turn up the Champ spam. Champions wreck Heavy Camel and beat Malians Champs, as far as I know. And Hand Cannons are a joke.
True, might work.
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Onager
Onagers cant be a win condition on Arabia or any other open map, in fact no civ has an all of a sudden Imperial unit to save the day, this cant be the gameplan.
Same about Koreans vs. Goths, for example, the only counter to Huskarls this civ has is Hand Can, you cant manipulate your way to Imp in order to achieve a victory. Youâd be doomed till then, unless youâre playing Arena, then Onagers are def the way to go.
And the Malians player tones down Heavy Camel production, and brings up Gbetos and Hand Cannons, which clown on Champions.
Anyone can tech switch, if they could not, the game would be very boring.
Malians has everything it needs to brutalize Franks. It actually is a counter-pick to Franks.
Farimba Cavaliers can also beat Champions easily, so Malians can just go pure Stables against Franks, something the Franks cannot do against Malians.
Malians and Berbers were specifically designed to beat Cavalry civs like the Franks.
Arenât you the guy who said Plumes+ Eagles > Huskarls?
Sir, please I think weâre done here.
no you have the wrong guy but if you think a 200 food unit in castle age where food is the most demanding resource is viable, youâre not that smart either
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Paladin+Halb or Paladin+Axe is more scary than Champions, but with Malians u can win the game against every civ in Castle Age
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