Balancing African civs

Lets open up a discussion about how to proceed with balancing the African civs. Clearly they are too strong on many levels, and it’s not just above-average units that contribute to this. Many design factors also contribute to their overall dominance. That being said, I mostly like how they’re designed and I think they’re fun to play.

First and foremost, lets tone down the units that are clearly too strong. In an ESOC thread, it was pointed out that Javelin Riders have the same cost, hp, and base damage as Janissaries, but they also have a horse and range resist. With just one card (the one that increases stats and resist), they trade evenly with skirmishers. Javelin Riders are not the only culprit, but they’re an easy example.

Next, it is my opinion that these civs should NOT gain access to extra native units upon age-up. The upgrades are fine and cool (and I realize that some upgrades wont make sense w/o the unit, so something has to change there as well), but the unit selection is nearly unscoutable, and the units are often too strong (or weird). You can narrow it down to 2 based on whatever type of wagon or resource arrives at the opponents’ shipment point, but it’s exhausting to try to scout this out and guess what possible unit compositions your opponent might throw at you on each of their age-ups. Additionally, many of these units are really confusing in terms of their place in the counter system, the two african civs lose much of their identity due to the overlap, and automatic access to these units further disincentivizes players from actually constructing native TPs.

If access to the natives units persists, I would strongly recommend cleaning up the mechanics of all these natives, as these units are often very difficult to decipher in terms of their place in the counter-system.

Lastly, the cows are too extreme. To summarize, 4 starting cows (not including the one that gets eaten) collect as fast as 1 vill. once they fatten they become 4 vills, or they can be sold for 500 res a pop, instantly depositing into your bank. this is like 4 additional age2 shipments that come at no cost. as they can finish fattening in a pretty short amount of time. It’s a lot too much, considering this is not the civs’ only economic bonus. And livestock maps are far from proper balance.

I have two suggestions to fix this. One or both could be implemented. The first idea is to reduce the starting number of cattle from 5 to 3, and to only 1 on livestock maps (or found live-stock could be prevented from using the market). The second idea is to limit the trade-in cap by age. 100 per age would be fair: so in age 2 you can sell your livestock for 200 res (of course they only need to fatten to 200, so there’s plenty of room to optimize and maximize value), in Fortress Age you can sell for 300 and so on.

These are my ideas, but tbh I haven’t played the civs all that much, so I’m sure other people have some better ideas.


For me Sevastopol Mortars need HP nerf. Once players get 4-6 along with javelins they are unstoppable, even trying to kill em with culvs.



Well isn’t the mistake letting them get 6 mortars to begin with, they’d also need to be age 4 and 6 mortars is 6000 resources.
The mortar hp has been nerfed and now despite being the same res as 2 falconets the mortar only needs 3 culverin shots to kill it while 2 falconets need 4.

In regard to the Javelin Riders being the same cost as Janissary’s, that is incorrect. The Javelin Riders cost double the gold and gold gathers slower than food so they are more expensive, even though the total amount may be the same.
To compare them to other dragoons, javelin riders are also the slowest and cannot even catch a hussar, also quite useless at kiting because they have the same speed as hussars if they stop and shoot they easily get snared and then killed by a few skirms.
Janissary’s also have a far higher siege which is very important, their siege is 2.5x higher than the javelins. You may win a fight with javelins but then good luck trying to siege any buildings.

The native units are fine as they are. If you see a native hut with hausa you know it’s either berber camels or akan musketeers(so anti-cav or anti-cav) with ethiopia they can have the somali musk type which is just another version of gascenya which you already have, only the sudanese dhervish are quite good but again it’s just filling a role they lack, ethiopia don’t get archers or crossbows so the dhervish is their way to deal with musketeers/heavy infantry.

These civs start off quite slow or at least average economically, with at the most a 3 villager shipment age 1(ethiopia only 2 because the abun can’t gather until age 2), plenty of civs have 4 villagers age 1.
in age 2, frances 4 cdb is worth almost 5 vills. germans 3 settler wagons is worth 6 vills(african civs only get a 4 vill shipment).
Compare to other civs, brits manor boom gets them 20 extra villagers before 8 minutes, dutch can have 5 banks up before 8 mins worth about 20 extra villagers as well, also a permanent unraidable source of unlimited coin.
Japans shrines are worth about 12+ vills and can switch between desired res in a second, swedens torps are like a vill each at the least, france can have a 100 villager eco with only 80 pop used allowing 120 for military, china can do the same with their 220 pop, can also get a factory age 3 and another age 4.

The new civs eco is just not comparable, you can’t even get that many cows because of the build limit now, and if you sell 1 cow you can’t sell more for quite awhile even if you have 20 because the value drops so far.
These civs also lack the strongest eco cards, they need several cards to reach a comparable level to refrigeration/royal mint, they also have no access to factories.

Yeah I realize javelin riders and janissaries don’t have the exact same cost. It’s 149 villager seconds vs 161 villager seconds, and the kill xp is the same. < 10% difference in cost and much more than 10% difference in effectiveness, namely +2.75 speed and ranged resist. Siege damage is not weighted as heavily as combat prowess clearly, because skirm/goon is the best comp in the game despite having the worst siege. As for kiting, they don’t need to kite against cav for the same reason that pikemen don’t need to kite against cav. they have a x5 multiplier.

You’re the first person I’ve ever heard say that these civs start off slow. They rush faster than Legacy Iro, and their eco doesn’t suffer for it. They can sell two cows in transition for ~250-300 coin + wood, giving them a free commerce-age shipment’s worth of res before they even hit Commerce. They’re indisputably fast.

If they want more vills, they can easily get the upgrade to fatten cows faster, and train 20 cows (you can train 9 cows just by selling 2), once fattened, each one collects .6 influence/second. This is almost as much resource generation as 5 dutch banks, and it costs 2k res instead of 3.5k res.

idk what game-mode you are playing, but nobody playing or watching competitive 1v1 will argue that any civ is viable except for Hausa and Ethiopia right now.


The kiting is important to not get snared, these are easily snared by a few cav then killed by skirms, yes the cav will die but the point isn’t to fight a unit that counters hand cav anyway with hand cav.
Siege damage is important age 2 because you have no artillery, if you’re rushing you want some high siege.

The old hausa rush pre nerf was strong but now not so much, if they sell the cows then they sacrifice long term eco, so yes they can do a fast all in but just a regular build is really quite slow, hausa specifically is a late game civ and ethiopia do a good ff.

I just wish the devs released the dlc similar to when US came out. Start as obvious underpowered.

Wonder when the next nerf is.

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The USA was obviously underpowered? This forum was screaming about how OP it was before it even came out.


Which I thought was hilarious.

On that note though: USA needs MAJOR help.

State Militia: Strong Unit - doesn’t need touched
Gatling: Strong Unit - doesn’t need touched
Regular: doesn’t need touched
Sharpshooter: holy smokes… one of the worst skirmish units in the entire game. SOMETHING needs to change about these guys.

Hussar: No cavalry armor card so they’re weaker than other civs. On that note I DO realize you have the Magyar Hussar which is good but I’m just addressing the Stable Hussar.
Carbine Cavalry: really? The absolute worst unit in the game. BIG BUFF needed here.

Minuteman: good units but once you gain the Marine card they should be able to be healed. My only gripe here.

General/Scout: the flag is super OP. I mean… it’s pretty nuts. Other than that this is a pretty bad unit.

These are the normal army comp units and as you can see they are quite in need of some buffs. Not huge buffs… I don’t want ANY civ to be OP but USA is very underpowered as the core of their army is pretty bad.

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Yeah, as @AssertiveWall20 pointed out, USA’s balance was up in the air for a long time. Think the devs probably had about as good an idea about USA’s balance as they did about Africa’s, but it’s really hard to get a good grasp on these things without hundred of people testing it out. And I’m sure there are only a handful of people working on the design side of things. That’s all beside the point.

Nothing we can do to change Africa’s balance now other than discussing how to move forward.

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The 4 starting cows are equal to about another 350 resources of each kind, assuming they are all traded upon reaching age 2. This makes the affrican civs start with about 700 resources, which is huge. You should see them on Carolina or Deccan lol.
They should have exactly 1 starting cow in addition to the one that gets sacrificed. This will stop their insane early game rushes in their tracks and bring them in line with other civs.

Also granaries shouldn’t be free, they are essentially cherry orchards but with hunting gather speed.

Remove healing in combat.

Then we can talk about nerfing their units, but I don’t think it will be necessary.


Agreed, there are still people crying about usa now saying its op.

The carbine cavalry need a major buff and some way to buff hussar too, you can’t put in 2 cav cards for the like they did with hausa because card space is extremely limited.

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If sharpshooters were as good as a normal skirmisher no one would still use it either way since the state militia would still be superior against every unit type cost wise

That’s what the point of the uhlans are for, Magyar hussars come kinda late but they also fill the role

You fail to recognize that the dragoons you can ship, the cowboys you can train, and the regulars all fill the role of the carbine, you fail to look at the civ as a whole and realize that the weak units the usa has access to have other units that do above average in the role that one unit doesn’t do well in.

Also notice how. Every unit other than the ones that have a different unit that ills the same role is an above average unit

You forgot to talk about cowboys and uhlans but those are also above average units

There is no weak unit usa has that doesn’t have a strong unit that fills the same role.

How so? It’s very easy with Hausa to get a mass of cav and archers early age 2, and I’ve found my age up time is not effected by doing the university in age 1, but if I decide to not do the university age 1 I can eat a cow and get a very fast age up, so either way you put it, Hausa are not a slow civ.

I introduce you to the raider cav!


definitely needs a nerf.


Africa civ thread tho


30 RANGE XD, culverin are dead.

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the mortar has a .25x on artillery or something. it definitely doesn’t stomp out culvs.

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they have 500 atack no? and 5 radius. whats the rate of atack? 125 real damage to 2 culverin maybe it would be. And then just a few shots of range units would kill 2 culverins

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i check it, they have .10 versus cuvlerin . Also range was chagne from 30 to 28

culverins can in theory