Biggest surprises?

EDIT : mofo shotels are now cost effective at fighting huskarl! Omfg i just realised it. It used to be something like 1:1 resources was flip of the coin. Now i think that 5g pushes it over. I’ll have to run the sums when i get the time…

Excellent patch but… In order from most to least surprising

0a. Gbeto buffed! (eeeeeee!!)

0b. No compensation for Indian nerf (WTFFF)

  1. No changes to militia line (mainly the LS tech)

  2. All ele civs were nerfed without compensation (well done on khmer, but the rest wth)

  3. Cumans were nerfed WTFFF? (here we are asking for a kipchak buff and they get nerfed??)

  4. Mayans were nerfed (lurv it!!)

  5. Turks FTW (even jans got a buff!?)

  6. CA? (maybe not a surprise but still sad)

I was very happy to see aztecs, mayans, khmer and surprisingly vikings were nerfed.

No i dont need to play even 1 second to see that some of these things are lacking. It’s stuff we’ve discussed for 12 months.


Ghetto buffed. Yeeeee


This makes me mad.

Not that surprising to me. The militia line sees use in all ages of the game. They might need a minor buff but they are fine at what they do.

My read? Elephants are team game units not 1v1 units.

Kipchaks see lots of use. So not surprising.

Yep. Saw this coming.

Not sure castle age jans needed a buff but whatever.

Been seeing these a bit more lately. They saw use in kotd3 and the royal tournament and 2v2 cup.

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Ignoring that some of those were leaked, here are my surprises:

Jag creation time was a big surprise to me. Not because its a big change, but because i think its weird to buff the most dominant civ right now (and yes, i know they were nerfed as well, would have just liked the devs to wait and see how impactful that nerf is before handing out the jag buff).

Leitis nerf is still a surprise to me (its the least impactful way to nerf the civ, yet the one that is most boring), but i dont want this to be another leitis-thread.

The Portugese buff seems pretty big as well, not sure if a mid-tier civ needs something as big - maybe start with something smaller?

Viking nerf seems a bit too small, their main problem is their early to mid castle age imho.


Straight buffs to the most underrated civ in the entire game is not something I’m high on.

At least they didn’t ruin Cavalry Archers.

Spanish canons gals are now mawr scary on all maps

Alucard: haven’t you heard the new sensation sweeping the nation? B’s love canons.

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Yes!! I forgot! I’ll add that! It’s amazing

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Oh yeah forgot about that…its not per se the nerf that surprises me, but the way they nerfed it: They just turned it into a cheaper mangudai. Thats…bad design? Taking away the uniqueness from the UU?

And shotelai too. I feel african out of sudden

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Genoese crossbow men and Jaguar warriors got training time buffed. Gbeto and shotel buff. Didn’t see that happening.

I agree that Malay, Vietnamese, and Burmese should have their elephants buffed. Was expecting it but actually got nerfed.

Kipchak mass in pocket TG is really strong but I agree that nerf is unnecessary.

Indians should have gotten arbalest back in exchange.

I was really expecting a militia buff which didn’t happen.

I was expecting Byzantines to get free town patrol which didn’t happen either.

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For me it was maybe the over optimism that maybe THIS time LS tech would get a price decrease. Especially after that insane “squires potentially buffed” garbage.

Like really what the actual **** were they thinking? They created their own f tier civ

Yeah for sure. But compounded with the arambai nerf Burmese really been hurt. And malay weren’t in a good position already. Now they’re even worse. Their eles were defo viable in 1v1s. Nevermind the civ used to never be used in TGs now there’s even less incentive.

Ah yeah defo. But a lot of people were still asking for buffs for them… They aren’t terrible by a long shot. They didn’t NEED a buff. It’s just super surprising the devs went the complete opposite direction.

They’re being super lazy again and forcing pure paladin dominance again… As in making every unit except paladins worse

Yeah that’s what i was most surprised about with them. I thought Jan’s were 100% OK.

Well, they arnt really affected, right? Its only elite ba that were slightly nerfed, and malay would prolly never upgrade those.

Bit sad. Still don’t understand balance change according to TG.
Their camels is not better than Malians/Saracens. But what else indians have? Malians also have great Cavalier. Saracens at least have knight and much versatile tech tree. Just make civ dead in 1v1.
Also Turks/Tatars/Indians have bonus PA or UT on Cavarly unit. Very strange design.

Much better than general buff on squire and faster eagle and faster lithuanians Pikes.

Kipchak is really powerful unit in late game. it is 0 frame delay mangudai with slight worse stat with 35 gold. I actually hope increasing gold cost. but increasing frame dealy and they can deal with onager. it is fine.

I don’t like the idea of bonus armor on scout. Yeah but lets see how it play. Elite Janis are deserve buff

CA is used by some civs (Huns, Magyars, Turks, Tatars, Mongols). I think general buffs are not needed.

Yeah if this didn’t happen i would have been super surprised.

Yeah this was unfortunate…

Normal ele lost 3 dmg vs buildings and is bulkier so harder to swarm and manoeuvre

Yeah this was gonna be a nightmare to balance. But longsword tech needs a price reduction like humans need oxygen

They are good. But paladin civs in TGs still crush them like no tomorrow. But they’re also very marmite in balance. You need a ton of micro to get the most out of them. Aka imbalanced at different player micro skill levels.

They are currently broken. If you interrupt their attack they break. Top players never do this. Majority of players do this often. So it hurts them the most.

They need to fix the broken issue even if they don’t buff them.

Worst case scenario a CA can take upwards of 3 seconds to fire. Reload time +attack delay + reload time (nevermind the actual horse needs to turn, unlike foot archers) sorry this CA debacle makes me angry. Its broken but devs won’t accept that’s a bug…

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I think only Elite Jannissaries were buffed

I do think that Kipchaks are used is also due to the fact that the rest of the archery range is questionable value without bracer. I really think the Kipchaks need the low frame delay due to the low range for them since at least CA / Mangudai have full range. But I guess we will see how this plays out for them. I am surprised they went this way

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Quick walling and full walling nerf. Could be that Drushes/M@A plays might now juuust barely, yet reliably when it’s successful, delay an opponent’s Archer economy long enough to make continuing with M@A a valid tactic by a numbers advantage for more M@A civs.

Also Jaguar Warrior buff. I still doubt it’ll see common use because of it’s narrow specialization. But in situations where it is useful I think it will become very common, i.e. Eagle vs. Eagle games.

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I think they are actually stronger in the Castle Age when the lack of bracer isn’t as impactful. I thought they were quite balanced given they didn’t have bracer. They rely on the 0 frame delay given the low range

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This!! In imperial they quickly become outdated… And even more so with that delay…

Would have to see how it plays but im wondering if infantry civs like goths stand any chance at all now…

For me i liked to train a few jags to counter swords if i was going mass eagles. You don’t need many jags to dissuade opponents from amassing swords. And this buff makes it even easier. It’s the threat they pose. You don’t even need to mass them to dissaude fhe enemy from training infantry. Since it would be a civ suicide to do so…

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And still no love for hand cannoneer

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Kipchak nerf was the most surprising to me, it’s just stupid