Infantry that doesn’t have a (very) distinct role from the militia line becomes less and less viable in comparasion with each buff of the militia line
9 Likes
Excellent point. Things like Woad Raiders and Berserks were already questionable in Castle Age, since their cost is significantly higher than swordsmen after supplies, and the stats are similar. Much easier to just produce swordsman when barracks are easy to build and you likely already have one to unlock stables and ranges. A buff to these UU is also an option, with +1 armor being the obvious choice. I don’t think some of the newer units need a buff (Obuchs and Serjeants) so other infantry UU would just be closing the gap a little, without any nerf to the new civs.
This is all less of an issue in Imperial Age, since the Champion isn’t really being affected (slight reduction in tech costs to get there). Arguably the current meta has some weak Elite Infantry UU though, so I wouldn’t be opposed to a buff.
Another option would be to extend supplies to unique infantry units. A 15 food reduction would help a lot when deciding between the two. I don’t think it would be balanced to make the spearman line cheaper, so it would need to be excluded from supplies. Alternatively just reduce the cost of some infantry UU to be closer to supplies swordsmen without requiring a tech.
3 Likes
Yeah units like Obuch, Serjeants, Huskarls and Axemen would still be pretty good, the units that will suffer the most from the buff are Jaguars, Berserks, Woads, Samurai, TKnights and Condottieri imo
I’m not sure about Kameyuks, Gbetos, Shotels or Karambits (I don’t play those civs often)
2 Likes
Karambits seem pretty well balanced after the most recent buff. I agree that Huskarls are fine.
Axemen and Gbetos fall into the same category IMO, they are different enough that they don’t really compete with Champions. Ideally neither is taking many hits, but I’m not opposed to a cost reduction and/or +1 armor on them if the devs decide it’s balanced. Kamayuks are a similar with their 1 range, but also more likely to take some hits and would benefit a lot from armor. They also should be massed to be effective, so lower food cost would help a lot. Imperial Age Elite Kamayuks feel about right because they get the Fabric Shields tech, which is basically another Plate Mail upgrade (+1 melee and +2 Pierce armor), just a little weak in castle age or early Imp before this tech.
I’d be hesitant to buff Teutonic Knights. I’m not sure about Shotels, they seem to die to arrows more than melee attacks (so to Gbetos actually) so armor probably wouldn’t do much. I’ll defer to others for these.
Samurai, Jaguars and Condos all have strength in their niche scenario. I would like them to be a little more well-rounded to compete with the Champion line. In 1v1 you generally don’t have enough resources to tech into both. Maybe just a cost reduction like supplies would be enough. They are all so much more expensive than the 45g + 20g swordsmen.
no, they were questionable in castle age because they require a castle. that’s about it. just like almost every melee unique unit in the game is questionable in castle age.
1 Like
Elite Infantry UU are generally in a good spot overall. Castle Age Infantry, not so much. Why do Samurai and Woad Raiders get only 8 attack? That’s less than LS. Cavalry and Archer UU’s get the better end of stats compared to Infantry UU’s.
2 Likes
woads have insane movement speed, which is far better then 1 measly attack.
2 Likes
Agree.
Jaguars have its own place, it’s just too situational. Usually, people don’t use infantry unless they don’t have any other options, but if the enemy infantry civ also have a unit that counter your infantry (like the JW) then it’s just another reason to no train champs, and stick with cav (considering that aztecs lack halbs).
Also, JW are too slow, they should be fast al least like a berserker. But who knows, maybe as an indirect consequence of this pup changes we will see more JW.
I say that those are fine. Yeah they are better versions of champs, but still some features differentiate them enough, and overall they are more powerful than a champ.
They on the countrary, have a unique feature that it’s too niche, and most of the times japs, with their flexible tech tree, have more ways to counter others UU.
It’s tricky though to make samurai unique…
Well, they are unique, just too far away from the meta. There is no hope for them apart from seeing them time to time.
At least they have a purpose with crenellations.
Condos aren’t bad on theory, but they are too focused on what they counter. Along with kamayuks, they are the only infantry unit without any bonus damage vs eagles (all infantry have at least +2, only the spear line have +1) in fact, only Italians ones (with pavise) can barely beat eagles.
Give them +2 vs eagles and +1 vs spears, so at least they are more “champion-like”.
Other solutions may be to make Italians research less upgrades for them, or at least to cost a bit less food.
Like condos, they need a bonus damage vs eagles. It doesn’t matter if they already beat them, eagles should be afraid of going against any infantry unit. The bonus infantry bonus vs eagles is to balance the eagle bonus vs cavalry.
For the rest, kamayuks are fine.
Those are fine too in my opinion.
1 Like
I totally agree with this. I actually think that the only way to make these units meaningful is to make them a sort of replacement of the militia line
2 Likes
The upcoming militia change will have abslutely no impact on UU viability. It’s basically a buff for castle age, infantry UUs are viable in imp
1 Like
Most of these units already beat a generic champion in a 1v1 fight. They don’t really need a buff.
The Elite Woad Raider (80 HP) is basically like a Hussar without the crippling weakness to spears. So, it makes it a great raiding unit to pick off villagers. This infantry unit has a good chance of closing the distance to archers and siege units who straight up die in melee. And shrugging off Halbs defending them.
The Berzerker does not need any buffs. It already beats a champion in a 1 vs 1 fight. Enough said.
The Teutonic Knight as an uber tanky infantry in melee combat, its weakness is their slow speed.
The Huskarl does not… need any buffs at all. it move fast, and is basically impervious to archer. It’s decent in melee.
The Samurai beats a generic champion in a 1v1 fight.
I could go on, but all these units tend to beat a generic champion in a 1v1 fight.
1v1 is not a fair comparison when the unique units are significantly more expensive than champions. Take Elite Berserks for example, since they are one of the cheapest UU, and an extremely generic UU (no bonus damage beyond what champions have, just slow HP regeneration). It costs 65 food + 25 gold, compared to Viking champions at 45 food + 20 gold. If you balance for gold cost (4 Berserks vs 5 Champions) the Champions easily win, if you balance for total cost (13 Berserks vs 18 Champions) the Champions slaughter. That’s not even considering how much easier it is to mass Barracks units compared to Castle units.
Samurai and Woad Raiders are a similar story. Balancing for either gold cost or total resource cost they lose to Champions. When comparing, we also have to do so within a civilization. There’s no scenario where you have to decide whether to make Samurai or generic Champions, it’s always a decision between Samurai or Japanese Champions.
Even Kamayuks lose to Champions with equal cost (this one surprised me since the UU gets the Fabric Shields tech and the champs do not).
Supplies is a big factor in the total resource comparison because 15 food is a significant cost reduction, but it has no impact on the gold cost balanced fight. I’m not saying the introduction of Supplies is a problem, it was a major part of balancing swordsmen in the cavalry/archer meta (most would say it wasn’t quite enough), just the unique infantry units were neglected.
Teutonic Knight seems fine IMO. Even if you balance for gold cost, and have them fight Teutonic champions (+2 armor) at 2:1 ratio they still win easily. Obviously their weakness is speed, and hit-and-run from archers, but there’s nothing wrong with a unit having a weakness.
Jaguar warriors also easily beat champions, but they lack versatility. They beat infantry due to bonus damage, but they lose many fights that Aztec champions would win with equal investment.
I’ll also point out that the most recent infantry UU, the Obuch, is an appropriate 20g, equal to champions, and has a 55 food cost that is more than Supplies champions, but less than non-supplies champs, for a stronger unit. The Obuch wins this fight when balanced for either gold or total cost. I believe the devs understand the UU cost issue, just have not circled back to correct old units.
1 Like
exactly, similar to the JW, they would need some tweaking to allow a more diverse role(like +1PA and/or +5hp), the jap champ is just so much more useful
the JW at least does its niche job incredibly well, and aztecs are super strong, neither of this applies to samurai and japs on arabia
agree on the res of the units as well except serjeants, they were cost effectively countered by almost all power units already, and hard countered by militia line, the buffs make the situation even worse.
still no idea why they didnt add it, italians were such a bad civ until the “resent” buffs… i dont understand how it couldve been left that bad, and condos are left over from that era
its funny how you think these are bad, while saying things like the serjeant are good…
have you noticed their attack rate…
definitely… its like because they are more popular unit types they get better balancing treatment… so weird
1 Like
I don’t know if I’d call Serjeants good. I think my only mention of them in this thread was to say they probably don’t need +1 armor, since they’re already at 2/2 in feudal age, 3/3 in castle age, and 4/4 after the elite upgrade. They also have high HP. I neglected them entirely in the cost discussion because I honestly don’t know how well they perform there. With a cost of 35 gold it is an expensive infantry unit, and balancing for gold they lose decisively to champions.
However that’s not the full story. I haven’t played Sicilians enough to understand the implications, but I can point out some very strange things about the unit. For one, it’s available in Feudal Age. Buffing them at this point could easily cause balance issues, when opponents only have Man-at-Arms, Archers, Skirmishers and Scouts. This also means production can start before or during aging up, so they can have a numbers advantage at the start of Castle Age.
Another strange thing about the Serjeant is their ability to build Donjons. If a player uses a strat that includes Donjons, then these units can save 90s of villager build time + walking time. If a single Serjeant built a Donjon, that 100+ seconds of villager time saved could be used to mine more gold than its 35 gold cost. However, with multiple Donjons, or multiple Serjeants building this becomes impossible to calculate in any meaningful way. I can really only say, they might save some villager time to help pay their high cost. Even if they do, this doesn’t mean there’s any more gold on the map in 1v1, and they can only save villager time as long as there is stone available and you need to build donjons.
The final strange thing about Serjeants is that you don’t always pay their price of 35g + 60f. It would be a waste not to take advantage of the First Crusade tech, which gives up to 35 Serjeants for a price of 600g + 300f. That gives a price of 17g + 9f per Serjeant, assuming you have 5 town centers. This is a great deal, far cheaper than any champion, and if it’s included in any cost comparison battle then it would take very high numbers for champions to beat Sicilians.
This is all a long way to say, I have no idea if Serjeants are good overall, but they are certainly the most complicated infantry UU.
I also don’t think I’ve called Woad Raiders “bad”. Their speed is nice, and they can pick of villagers about as effectively as an Eagle Warrior. Just in combat against most other melee military units (debatable against some ranged units like siege or archers), when considering resources spent, they are objectively worse than Longswords or Champions.
Berserks actually are kinda “bad”. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy the unit, they wear capes, and they’re slightly faster than Champs (not nearly as fast as WR). I make the unit when I can, but there’s usually that feeling that I’d be better off making generic swordsmen. Their niche use seems to be, take a small battle, then go wait and heal up without needing monks, then take another small battle. I just don’t think this happens very often in games, and the regeneration is very slow without the expensive Berserkergang tech (850f + 400g). Even with that upgrade (not considering the cost), the regeneration during a fight isn’t enough to make them beat Champions cost-effectively.
It’s 5% better than swordsmen. They perform 20 hits in the time it takes a champion or longsword to do 19. This does not make up for the -1 attack against generic units (8 and 12 vs 9 and 13). Samurai are only the better choice against unique units because of their bonus damage, and the faster attack rate synergizes well with that.
Imho at 35 gold they’re not.
They’re slower than most infantry UU (except for Obuchs ant TK), yes they have good armor but lackluster attack, yes they beat generic champions, but at 60F 35G I believe it’s the bare minimum since they are so slow and vulnerable to siege that I really almost never make them outside First Crusade tech.
The donjon gimmick is almost useless, Donjon are terrible imho, so weak, cost too much, they are only good if you overcommit to Serjeants, which is not a good thing. Sicilians started as infantry civ, but in all honesty their infantry is really average, even the reduced bonus damage is almost useless for infantry, unless the enemy is maybe turks/bohemians, and much, much more valuable for their cavalry. At least the Serjeant gold cost should be dropped to 30 imho.
Think this, knowing that Sicilians get almost FU siege (except bombard cannons) and FU infantry: when would you use Serjeants?
Against cavalry? Why? You have faster FU halberdiers.
Against japanese/burmese/aztec champs? They die, better make arbalesters/siege.
Against regular enemy champs? Make your own.
Against halberdier spam? You have FU champions or your own FU halbs.
Against archers? You have Heavy scorps, usable skirms (that shreds opposing skirms if enemy mix them with archers), FU mangonel line and Hauberk Cavalier.
To raid? 0.9 speed unit to raid? 11
To play them like Huskarls? You have siege ram for proper sieging, actually Sicilians can go very well halb+siege.
It seems like Serjeants are simply meant to tank arrows, because against melee their high armor is good only vs trash units as their attack is lower than other infantry so it’s merely a compensation. To tank arrows with a slow unit I’d rather make rams.
3 Likes
All the infantry units have a bonus vs eagles, the only 2 lacking it are the condos and the kamayuks, and the only thing that those 2 units have in common is that they were the only 2 infantry units added with the forgotten DLC, so it was probably “forgotten” (pun not intended).
Now, kamayuks are actually decent, but condos no. Having a bit more damage output against some specific units would help them a lot in some circumstances.
Another idea to generally buff them, may be to buff the Italians in general, and give them a bonus of free infantry armor (like the Korean one).
The uni discount wasn’t bad at all, but now I’m thinking that it’s have its drawbacks.
It’s just too complicated. To use the bonus you need to wait until castle age and spend 200 wood on a uni, they should have given them a bonus like the bohemians.
1 Like
thats actually a really nice idea, and synergises incredibly well with the whole idea of the condo… only possibility is for some kind of abuse into a fast imperial condo spam vs civs not equipped to handle it
i dont know how or what match up it could be, but that is my only concern
but i really like the idea.
good point
hahaha yeah
sorry it is the old case speaking over the internet and using broad terms to discuss more complex situations, what i meant is that the serjeant isnt cost effective, so needs some tweaking outside of 1st crusade (therefore more likely a minor speed buff and minor cost reduction if anything, as any radical stat change will impact 1st crusade too much)
woads and zerks are 2 of the most seen UU infantry in the game, less so for woads due to the lower play rate of celts, and how their strengths typically encourage hoanging or ending the game soon
whereas the zerk is literally one of the most cost effective units in the game. you dont even need to take the UT to reach this level in certain matches. but similarly to celts, vikings insane eco lead (1000+ res usually tends to end the games sooner, and using meta units like xbow/arbs or kts)
im not sure where the link is but the same guy who made the combat sim, made a table of unit cost effectiveness vs everything in the game… ETK, WE, scorpions and zerks were on top, the difference being zerks are incredibly fast, therefore actually making them viable.
just because zerks are countered by certain civs champs, doesnt mean they dont cost effectively counter everything else (including cavaliers and their high gold cost)
serjeants could initially repeair siege weapons, and siege weapons had the bonus damage reduction
this gave sicilians a pretty clear identity… serjeants paid a premium because their utility was vastly expanded, while at the same time, they had inherently superior siege to almost everyone else.
instead they double knee capped their uniqueness and went the ULTRA lazy route of buffing them around cavaliers…
It can be, but overall, condos needs 10 upgrades to be FU (squires, arson, 3 attack upgrades and 3 armor upgrades, pavise UT and conscription).
If you remove the 3 armors, you would still need 7 upgrades, and to be fully armored you would need a castle too.
It’s true that though along with condos, italians can add cheaper HC, that’s what worries me. But I’m thinking that the cheaper HC might goes to the bohemians (not the cheaper BBC and GC).
Well, LS, xbows, knights are all units that can counter condos even in castle age, with the right upgrades. The only problem is if the condos really outnumber them, or as I said if you add HC with them. But as pure raw power of the condos, it wouldn’t be that high if you compare a early imp condo (just +3/4) with a post imp FU condo.
They could extend the discount to TR, or to the line upgrades of archers (xbows, skirms).
Or you just give them a super discount on the uni (like it cost just 50 wood) and f*** the overlapping.
7!
That made sense then, too bad they removed this and now Serjeants imho sit in a bad spot for the price paid.
I don’t think all of the infantry UU needs a flat 15 food cost reduction.
A new way is Elite upgrade reduces some of the infantry UU cost. There is no such an upgrade in the game that reduces the price of an unit. I’d be happy to see Elite Samurai food cost reduced by 10, Elite WR food and gold cost reduced by 5. Maybe Elite Jaguars and Elite Berserk can also get a cost reduction.
2 Likes