what are the data about Incas and Goth being the worst civs? imho there are worse civs…so i would be curious to see solid data
Those aren’t the worst civs, but quite inconsistent compared to the rest of the civs, Incas lack anything to solidify the infantry theme, and Goths are just way too one-dimensional and quiet OP at lower level but bad at 2k level.
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do you have data for that?
because this is the winrate by elo according to the 3rd link i posted. seems quite average for most elo
The data comes mostly from lower level players where Goths bonuses kick out quite good, but ask to Hera, Viper or other about what they think about Goths…
In tournaments the civ picking rate is little (to not say non-existent).
full infantry tech tree + infantry UU + infantry upgrades affect villagers. seems like a solid infantry theme to me
And any bonus for it, basically only in post imperial (like how Teutons and Saracens used to be, infantry and camel civs without any bonus on castle age).
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The tweak for Incas would be replacing the current team bonus with infantry bonus to match their identity. +2 LOS for infantry is reasonable. Or 33% cheaper barracks/barrack techs.
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that’s not data, that’s anecdotes
depends a lot. master of islands yes, master of socotra no. not every civ needs to be good in every setting
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Goths and incas are not the weakest civs. and I’m unwilling to agree to any buffs to goths that doesn’t remove their +10 population in the Imperial age
a nerf only on arena, in other maps they are trash
Well yes I mean nerf them on Arena and at the same time buff them on other maps.
Bestiapower, I think you propose way too many changes. And that has some problems:
- It is not the spirit of balance changes to drastically change the game or redesign existing civs. In that case you’d rather make a new civ for a DLC.
- With that much changes it is way harder to know if they solve the problem and if they are all together balanced. In fact, I personally think trash Kamayuks is OP, and Goths are as weak as always until late imp.
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I don’t think Incas would be pushed towards generic eagle play with the change, being xbows a very common option, but just adding versatility. I wouldn’t also mayanize Incas, I think it is nicer when civilizations are more unique.
In any case, I like the idea of making unique units or goths’ castle age infantry more viable. If we come up with good concrete suggestions it would be nice.
I’m not sure how much you can rely on that. Check for example Chinese: They are among the 3 best civs, banned on virtually every tournament draft, and have worse win rate than 75% of the civs.
My own experience playing at 1600 ELO and, most importantly, pros’ opinions (you can for example see various tierlists they have on youtube).
Arabia 1v1 mostly, but I think they are generally bad in most settings.
I don’t mean Inca is the weakest of all, but rather one of them. Also, I think virtually everyone agrees Goths is the worst civ in the game, in most settings, at any intermediate ELO or above where people know how to win against them. Moreover I’m pretty sure it is the least played civilization in tournaments, besides maybe Socotra and Chaos Pit.
No by a large margin, I will play Goths all day instead of Burmese 11 (I am at 1900 elo)
Goths are actually fairly ok if you abuse the early loom and military bonus
Don’t think Incas are played that much as an infantry civilization, but I think:
This is a very small but nice buff (could replace their current laughable team bonus).
I like this one as well, which is still mostly benefiting eagle warrior play. The only thing, I would apply a 20% discount at most, 33% may be way too much.
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Burmese are of course as bad as Goths or even worse… we all agree they need a change, I just can’t come up with ideas for them.
Not really, at least you got solutions for archers while Burmese got literally nothing (which hurts too much in mid-high elo).
I think people here underestimate the early loom and military - pushing vills forward with drush/flush + tower rush is actually pretty decent for goths (also goths late game are not the greatest imo)
Chinese have 20% discount for all techs. 33% makes much sense.
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I mean more specific discount tend to be bigger than general discounts, check Bulgarians, Burgundians, Burmese bonuses.
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