Buff the Elite Conq

What leads us again to the usage of conqs, which are extremely sowbally in either direction.
So if you are desperate to need them upgraded the game might already have been lost.
And if you are already winning you just take the upgrade to close it even faster.

To change this, it would take an insane upgrade, I don’t see this happening, cause then it would be so strong as a standalone unit that spanish would make conqs only all the time…

I get what you’re saying but shouldn’t a unit that’s expensive to create and upgrade be worth its cost? I’m thinking maybe make the Spanish gunpowder bonus like 17.54% in the Castle age and 20% in the Imperial age. This will also buff their Bombard Cannons, Hand Cannoneers and Cannon Galloens.

They are still super vulnerable to trash, archers, skirmishers, siege, eagles, huskarls. They’re only decent vs. Melee units (with some exceptions)… and can fight siege if microed heavily.

That is what I suggested.

15-20 of a gunpowder unit that cots 60 food, 70 gold.

Exactly.

yes
yes
no - the lower cost would enable players to mass more conqs during castle age snowballs.

I would love to see Tower meta back a bit. Once upon a time keeps wood cost as increased by 100% and the hp severely lowrred plus additionally villager dmasge against towers increases.

Tower meta did not survive.

Reverting all of this would be a mistake. But maybe some? How about restoring the wood cost to aoc values.

Spanish used to be a good tower rush civ into conqs.

Buffing keeps is restoring spanish, incas (not Koreans as they have completely changed)

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As much as I would like to see more trushes on higher level of play - trushing always has been a “noob basher” strat. Especially the incan one.
And I am pretty sure a lot of the unexperienced players still die heavily to trush plays, so I would be careful with buffing it only because we understand the technical concepts how to effectively counter it…

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Making keeps cost 25 wood instead of 50 again buffs offensive and defensive towering eqzally thought.

You will see that defensive towering will become meta regardless. Not because of the strengths of towers actually but because of the lack of alternatives in the current arabia design.
I see no reason to further push into that direction actually.

And in general the thing is with strats like trushing you will always have the behaviour that you can bash noobs with it and then stuck at a certain elo where players actually “know” how to defend against it. So a change in the cost of towers actually doesn’t make trushing more “viable” really.

I think it’s more about map design. If we would have maps that would offer some natural “weak spots” that could be used for a trush (when scouted, they shall not occur in every generation and at different locations), this would allow also at higher elo to work more with towers. Like if current arabia would allow for ressource spots to be more close to another this could possibly enable some trushing opportunities.

Castle age conquistadors trade cost efficiently against mangudai, cavalry archers, kipchaks, and even crossbowmen, and that is even after those units have all of the castle age upgrades. Conqs cost far less to fully upgrade (don’t need attack/range upgrades, thumb ring, or ballistics, and the defense upgrades also cost no gold due to the Spanish civ bonus). In imperial age, however, all of these matchups are flipped on their heads (except for vs kipchaks); rather than elite conqs overpowering arbalesters like regular conqs do vs crossbowmen, they get beaten decisively by arbalesters, and elite mangudai, and heavy cavalry archers. Mainly because they stay at 6 range whereas the other units go up to 7 range (or from 7 to 8 in the case of the crossbowmen to arbalester).
Personally I’d just give the econq 7 range and be done with it. Maybe increase its accuracy by 5% or 10% in order to compensate for the fact that shooting from longer range results in worse accuracy.

Conqs need Food and also train comparably slow for a castle unit.
It’s not so easy to get that mass in castle age you are talking about.

Fight me for this, but I think elite gunpowder UUs should either get 100% accuracy to mimic thumb ring, or have their missed shots deal 100% damage like arambai.

Conqs in castle are almost fine, maybe could use a small damage nerf to like 15 to not 3 shot vils.

This should come alongside some big buffs for the Spanish earlygame.

But imp conqs are in a dire need of help, we all know that.

I have literally seen people play on Spanish CA on the top level in imp because conqs are so bad.

Imo the best “buff” for elite conqs was if they don’t get a bonus to their attack but to their ROF instead.
I am not sure about accuracy actually, it might be an indirect nerf for elite conqs actually - it’s not that important for a high damage low rof unit.

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I don’t think they need a very strong buff. The elite conq only seems so weak because it’s an underwhelming upgrade to a unit that is, bar absolutely none, the best Castle age unit in the entire game. Castle age Conquistadors do exceptionally well in retaining value even in Imperial age when well-tended to. Fact of the matter is, Imperial age brings archers with very long range, very long range makes the conqs very lackluster.

I’d much rather see them get a pierce armor buff, to offset their main imperial weakness to Archers rather than give a unit with high speed and the damage to kill Onagers a faster reload time. That’ll do a lot for making them maintain value as the tech level increases, without making them more polarizing in certain matchups.

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When, in 2005?

It’s ridiculous to believe that Conqs are any stronger than War Wagons currently, arguably Organ Guns too.

And I don’t think any “decent” player disagrees with me.

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Being able to dictate fights has apparently lost a lot of value, if that’s a consensus of any degree.

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Conqs still have the mobility, and they are also less expensive than Organ Guns and War Wagons (though both are OP in that double castle strats)
Also the armor upgrades doesn’t cost gold.
A fact, in a planned balance patch back in 2001, ES wanted to buff elite conqs with better HP, I think it could work now.

Yes it has, on any map besides Nomad. And even there Spanish are only “good” because of the +1 vil on start.

Regardless, WW and Organ stacks are much more dangerous. As is the possible double castle play as mentioned:

I disagree, food is quite the premium when being aggressive with castle drops and such. If Conqs costed wood, sure, they would be cheaper. But with a food cost, no. Never.

Largely not that relevant compared to them being free as for Koreans, still, the biggest issue is food.
WW don’t even direly need fletching or bodkin as they can just dive TCs anyway with the ridiculous pierce.

Still you get an unit that has really high attack, is ranged and is fast, if anything, pre DE the Spanish were such a nasty civ for 1v1 when Arabia woodlines were bigger and closer to TCs, better walls and unnerfed Towers, basically Men at Arms-Towers-Castle and Conqs were out to harass you, Conqs also weren’t classified at cav archer armor class so basically skirms weren’t that good countering them and lol they could beat camel archers in equal numbers. If conqs were also too domimant in Imperial tho then the unit would be basically OP.

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Okay, but now towers are bad, walls are bad, conqs are nerfed and take more dmg from skirms, so what exactly do Spanish have?

Bar some matchups like against Teutons where they are basically unstoppable (but same can be said for a lot of UUs like Mangudai vs Slavs or Lbow vs Teutons), I don’t think Conqs are that great anymore. They deserve a response with skirms or monks, but that’s about it.

I get that it’s in the identity of the Spanish to have everything generic and Conqs as the “signature unit” behind it, but Spanish are so one dimensional with the bad dark, bad feudal, decent castle age and mediocre imp and all of your games on closed maps feel the same and all of your games on open maps also feel the same.

Conqs should be nerfed in castle, Spanish should be buffed in Dark and Feudal, and Conqs should be buffed in imp. Alongside maybe Spanish as a whole.

As I have said before, their imp is far from spectacular. They kinda die to all compositions- halb SO, huss CA, even halb arb. And it’s not like their eco can carry them either…

All things considered though, there are UUs that deserve nerfs much more than Conqs, gutting them even more is kicking Spanish when they are down.

Deal with WW, Organs first, then we can talk about Conqs.

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Lol. Maybe they don’t have some crazy imp bonusses, but they have a lot of things almost or fully upgraded. All trash is FU, FU Paladin, Monastery. Their Siege isn’t the best but they have strong bonusses to gunpowder in compensation.

Maybe spanish aren’t “spectacular”. But it’s a very strong lategame actually.

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In free for all where you have to use a variety of units, yeah, it isn’t. But a full monk tree doesn’t matter outside arena in 99% of cases, and as I said, even for 1v1 the meta is currently dominated by huss CA. In TG on closed maps where Spain is used it’s either that or halb SO.

FU pala is nice, but without an eco bonus you could possibly get to it… on Arena or BF. And even then you would have CDed anyway because Spanish get outscaled by a lot of civs so your eco isn’t fit for it.

Point is, even hun lategame with faster working stables, FU huss and cheap CA is better than spanish lategame. You don’t need many FU units, you just need a decent composition.

And the worst part is, Koreans for example transition to the said better lategame with halb SO leftover WW bbt stacks. Spanish transition to what, huss conq? lmao

So not only they are the better civ in dark and feudal, they have the better UU, and their imp comp is better too, fundamentally. Nice one.