Given that both sides can do this, it doesn’t particularly balance the bonus in any way. Assuming both sides are playing with approximately equal skill, the side with the bonus will always do better than the side without it.
The true balancing factor is that other civilizations get team bonuses of Their Own.
Hmmm, imo it’s comparable to the Chinese bonus (extra farm food), Mongol bonus (+2 scout LOS), Vietnamese bonus (location of enemy tc, not team but easy to ping), and Portuguese bonus (free dark age cartography).
Regardless, the Burgundians are pretty mediocre atm. Do you have an idea for how to make them more competitive?
giving them eco upgrades cost less 25-50% food?, so it make their one age eco earlier more viable
Wouldn’t do them much good. Having an Eco upgrade a few minutes earlier makes virtually no difference. What they need is a way to effectively keep their enemies from advancing to the next age. That way, they can take advantage of the Eco upgrades for a longer period of time.
Hence… You know… My suggestion.
This is not at all the same. Say it’s a 4v4 match. Say everyone collects 100 wood. With the current Celt bonus, only the Celts would instead collect 115 wood. With your bonus, the enemy would each only collect 85 wood, a team difference of 60 wood. That’s a huge team nerf.
Which is why the bonus would probably need to be somewhat smaller to compensate. Lowering this bonus to more like 10% might be a fair compromise.
Of course, that ignores huge bonuses like the Spanish trade buff, which over 4 players makes a truly massive difference. If the civ itself is relatively weak, then the team bonus can be comparably massive.
I feel like this bonus could replace their current early access to eco bonuses and would be more of a boost to them without being broken. Having early access and cheaper eco upgrades seems a little broken.
I’m pretty sure this civ would be banned by pros if they got this bonus 33% costly to age up. Any tournament events would ban this civ from being played with such a bonus.
I’m pretty sure T90Official, the Viper, and Spirit of the Law would find it broken.
Well first it would be unfun for the enemy to have all their experience thrown out of the window just because you decided to choose a particular civ. Imagine spending your whole game waiting for your wood to come in because your income is slower than usual.
Secondly, in a team game it would mean your whole team is ahead, instead of just you. This would be just dumb.
Spanish trade is a late game bonus, so the enemy team has a lot of time to take the advantage and be in a position to kill more trade. With your proposition, the enemies of the Burgundian team would be behind the second the Burgundian team clicks feudal.
But if they are 100 times weaker it isn’t balanced…
Lol no, the first one is wood savings that should kick in once in castle age only, the other 3 are scouting info. Useful but not as much as being ahead in military so easily.
For sure, they a need a rework of their imperial age unique tech, because it’s just not usable in normal gameplay. I suspect castle age cavalier and earlier eco upgrades aren’t completely figured out yet, so I wouldn’t try to touch those yet.
Then come up with something that isn’t automatic nd no, supplies for extended feudal m@a spam isn’t the solution
The bigger problem with your idea is that bonuses are supposed to be benefits to your team that you can capitalize on with your gameplay, not nerfs your opponents have to figure out how to work around. If you want a similar effect, you would want a bonus like the Malay (faster age advance), Italians (cheaper to age advance in general), or Byzantine (cheaper imperial).
Imo you want a Burgundian Civ Bonus like:
Civ Bonus: Feudal age costs 300 food, castle age costs 500 food and 200 gold
For reference, the Viking bonus of free wheelbarrow (175 food, 75 wood, 75 sec) and free handcart (300 food, 200 wood, 55 sec) has a larger eco impact. However, numbers could vary for balance. This may allow them to use their extra resources on their early eco bonuses or allow them to strategically build a larger army. It’s a unique bonus and allows for strategic decisions.
Well, as I said, it could easily be reduced in potency. 10-15% might be more fair, the rough equivalent of 1-1.5 villager lead.
I think this sort of change would actually be vitalizing. Some players over-rely on build orders rather than having a true grasp of the mechanics of the game. Throwing that out the window gives a fresh renewal of the game and rewards the players who truly know how to play the game!
And since all team bonuses become more potent the more teammates you have, that second complaint isn’t any more relevant than any team bonus.
Which is why team bonuses are carefully balanced. Like I said, I’m not married to 33%, it’s just a starting figure to explain the concept.
Why? What’s fundamentally wrong with automatic bonuses? Remove all automatic bonuses and you remove about 90% of all bonuses in the game.
Is there really a difference?
For example, if I’m playing against the mongols, yes, they need to adjust their play to take advantage of their hunt bonus, but I likewise need to adjust my playstyle to account for their stronger dark age. These things always run both ways.
Sorry, but that completely misses the point.
The idea is 100% about slowing down the enemy age up, not making the burgundian advance faster. Burgundians are stronger the longer they can remain in lower ages and keep their enemies there as well. As they age up, their eco bonuses become less and less effective.
The game mechanic for achieving this through military rushes. You don’t get a bonus that nerfs your opponents. No bonus in AOE does this, all AOE bonuses only benefit your team and your gameplay.
the early eco upgrades are not interesting enough to warp the whole game around it. just let it be a minor bonus and give them something else
The trouble is, early military rushes are generally more effective at actually ending the game early, not drawing it out. If they fail, the net effect isn’t usually drawing out feudal age, it’s just failing to kill them and then they get to the next age slightly slower.
The burgundian’s bonus is at its most useful during protracted bouts of early aggression. This can’t be achieved in any way other than by slowing them from reaching the next age directly.
And actually, there are already several mechanics that are functionally quite similar. The teuton boost to conversion resistance, for example, as well as the new effect of Anarchy in reducing the strength of enemy relics. The fundamental concept is already well-established.
What makes you say that? I think a bonus that forces your enemy to re-evaluate their build order on the fly is a very interesting bonus. It makes you actually think about parts of the game that you may not have considered for a long time!
I think you mean Atheism, which is a tech, not a bonus.
The Teuton bonus applies by making your units stronger, not enemy monks weaker. This is the distinction.
This is way better than the Viking bonus just because you would get insane timings. Like this is the Lith bonus, where you trade the signature drush with much better uptimes for both feudal and castle.
It can’t work no matter the value for the simple reason this starts so, so early. Same with more expensive age up.
If you feel your opponents rely too much on build orders, then lame them every game or something ig. This idea is like laming (in that sense they have to lose ressources) but unavoidable.
Ok you know what you will have to back it up. Imagine that your idea is implemented and you’re playing against Burgundian. You and your team are all a bunch of food and several seconds behind in feudal age, what are you going to do?
Well technically while most bonuses are automatically applied by the game, they require more brains to use than playing 100% standard while knowing the enemy has to be behind no matter what.
If anything this makes things worse. Now you have to try and account for both your bonus and the malus. Without the Burgundian player having to do any effort really.
Also imagine you get lamed on top of that, it becomes even stupidly harder to adapt.
Right, good catch there! But the fact it’s a tech doesn’t really matter. The concept of nerfing the enemy rather than boosting yourself is already well-established.
There’s really no difference as far as the monks are concerned, as well. The civ bonus could be written as “Enemy monks convert 33% slower” and it would have an identical effect.
Why does when it starts matter? Many bonuses start instantly, like +150 starting food, or free loom, etc. The starting point is irrelevant. In fact, it starts much later than many bonuses.
Again, there’s no functional difference between a buff to you vs an equal nerf to them.
The exact same thing you’d do against any civ with a more powerful eco bonus. Only this particular eco bonus is tailored to especially help the burgundians.
Not particularly. +150 starting food, +15% wood collection, +20% gold collection, these bonuses don’t exactly take huge brain power.
Exactly! It’d be great! What an awesome way to keep the game fresh and interesting!
Good point, I kind of designed this idea on a whim, but imo some saving is reasonable, maybe something like
Civ Bonus: Feudal age costs 400 food and 100 wood, castle age costs 600 food, 200 wood, and 200 gold
The idea is just to let them have a bit more food eco so they can actually purchase their eco techs early.