Again, having the ability to get their techs earlier doesn’t actually help them, because they’ll always be better off just getting more villagers instead.
You also can’t fix this problem by making the techs cheaper, because that ends up being their entire bonus, not the fact you can get them earlier.
They still need to reach the same point where the eco techs become more valuable than additional villagers, which requires staying in the earlier age for longer periods of time, which will never be viable so long as the enemy is capable of advancing and leaving you behind. The advantages of getting to castle age are just too strong.
They need an effective way of keeping the enemy in the feudal age, or their current eco bonus might as well not exist.
That statement only applies to wheelbarrow and handcart (assuming no tc idle time). These upgrades aren’t really worth it until you have around 40+ villagers (see SOTL) because villagers are better to produce up to that point.
If you can get the castle age wood and farm upgrades at the start of feudal before dropping farms, while still producing villagers, you are much better off than they are.
Also, nerfing is counterintuitive because keeping them in feudal would just mean it is stronger for you to fast castle into knights and run them over that way. It would make it less appealing to stay in feudal age and make use of early eco upgrades.
don’t overthink it. it’s just a throwaway bonus because they needed something unique that they hadn’t already used
the game doesn’t have enough stuff in it for 40 civs to have good bonuses. they should just let two civs get the same bonus for some of the more versatile ones, so that the game can reach a finished state more quickly instead of being wildly imbalanced forever. civs won’t lose their identity if two civs get the same invisible boost to early game income
Well if you look at the math, double bit axe costs 150 resources and gives you 20% faster wood collection. Three villagers, by contrast, would give you 37.5% faster wood collection. Getting double bit axe before having 15 villagers on wood isn’t efficient, unless you’ve got resources floating, but typically, you won’t have resources floating at that stage of the game, anyway.
So even getting double bit axe is almost always not going to be an optimal choice. The same in general goes for the farm upgrade; while it’s nice to have it, it does you little good to have it any earlier, because the amount of food you have available is pretty well balanced to get you through to the point of being able to research it just in time anyway.
The only time you might want to get it in the dark age is if you’re doing prolonged early aggression, but it’s very difficult to force your enemy to go along with that when they could just wall up and go up anyway. They need to be delayed somehow to allow you time to take advantage of these early bonuses.
Don’t forget that other civs have eco bonuses of their own, while 100% of the burgundians bonuses are tied to investing in their eco early. In most cases, this bonus slows them down to equal the burgundians at best, it doesn’t actually put the burgundians in a position to run over their opponents.
On the contrary, I think it’s a really cool bonus - IF it’s allowed to shine.
It’s basically a slowly growing bonus dependent on being able to apply constant enough pressure to keep your enemy from advancing.
Because eco bonuses are generally much cheaper than age up bonuses, so long as you’re roughly trading equally with your opponent, you should be able to drop the 150-250 resources needed for each upgrade without allowing your enemy to get the 500 or 1000 needed to age up. Over time, these eco bonuses begin to shine; by the time you have 2-3 of them, you’re basically the most powerful eco-boosted civ in the game.
But it takes time; time they don’t currently have. That’s what I want to give them.
If I remember correctly, he also asked to make teutons able to build towers one year ago.
And now we have sergeants building donjons. It is not the same, but is very alike, isn’t it?
Your civ would end up banned by pros and tournament play. Your team bonus would be considered an OP joke. Maybe buff this civ some other way, but what you suggest completely breaks the game.
I don’t know but im assuming someone pointed this out… Even if you can balance the TB for 1v1 it will be OP in TGs. Burg is weakest in a 1v1 ie they would need the bonus to be strongest there so i don’t see this working unless it scales with number of enemies… Gets weaker the more enemies there are…
On top of all of that it’s just an ugly bonus.
Rather think of something cool that adds something nice.
And it doesn’t matter how many times you say something like this, it’s still just your opinion
All of us honestly do or don’t think certain things that doesn’t make them right. there’s a few people here that honestly think TR is less important than PT on CA, it doesnt make them right either
There is a huge difference, such bonus would completely change your build order.
You say that you have to adjust anyway you build order, and to some degree it’s true, but not that much.
If you are mongols, you may want to go a super fast feudal into scouts, but even a generic Drush open into archer, or a fast castle into knights. You want to do whatever you want with your civ and bonuses, you want to make use of them or not, you may even want to go for the less reasonable strategy just to surprise your enemy.
This bonus remove that, and force you to change your build orders (that many of us memorize before the game) at the last minute, and it still gives the burgundians no advantage.
In fact, such bonus it’s either too weak that some civs will overpower it (chinese, mayans aztecs, italians…) or so strong that it’ll be OP. You don’t want the second case for certain, and in the first case you won’t have done anything to help them.
Also, the TB is fine, it’s free food and it never hurt, and if you really want to buff them just add a standard bonus.
Some examples may be:
Stables cost 50% less too
This allow to save some wood (88w), that can be either used to build more stable (you can build one just for research techs, so you don’t idle your production) or to invest in those early eco upgrades, so you can more easily research bowsaw, or heavy plow, or simply more farms.
Light cavalry can be researched in feudal age
This one is in line with early cavalier. Researching light cav would present the same problem of researching bloodlines in feudal (since it takes about the same time), so it should be paired with the first bonus, but it would be cheaper than BL, it would add +15HP (so 5 less than BL) and it would give +2 attack. The downside is that LC is slower than scouts, but it would make your scouts more effective against feudal age units, without making them OP.
Change flemish militia UT in:
All vills have a key to be individually transformed into FM
All archer/xbows trained at the time are instantly transformed into HC
Apply those 3 changes to the burgundians and they’ll become a much more solid civ.
Exactly, this way you pose the same dilemma of the other civs, or researching BL or not, or at least of research it when aging up or after having transition into archers.
It would still pose the problem of the lack of an eco advantage, but at least their scout rush would be more balanced.
Not really. ALL team bonuses become more powerful in team games, so this would be no different in that regard. If it’s balanced in 1v1, it would also be balanced in 4v4.
Why is this a problem? I see this as nothing but a benefit. If you over-rely on build orders, this would make for a very interesting game, and would encourage players to gain a better grasp of game mechanics.
Shortly: Build Orders aren’t worth protecting. They’re a tertiary aspect of the game at best.
Not particularly. Any civ with a stronger eco will do just as much better as they would in a standard game. The only civs that might potentially face a bit of difficulty are those with flat bonuses of resources, but even so, they’ll still be within about 3% of their standard strength, in proportion.
I disagree significantly. Relics are primarily useful in the late game when gold is in short supply. There is no point of the game where a tiny trickle of food is a significant bonus.
That’s nowhere near right. Each player would spend 50 extra for feudal, 100 extra for castle, and 180 extra for imperial. That’s a total of 330 each. But Imperial doesn’t really count, since resources are typically plentiful at that point. So pragmatically, you’re looking at about 150 resources per player. Given that there are bonuses like 20% faster stables, which essentially saves you a production building by late castle age, which saves you 175 wood, and then much more as the game progresses, I think that’s a perfectly fair malus.
To be clear, about 40 posts ago I agreed a 10% malus would be more fair than 33%.