Byzantine Balance Suggestion

Bizzantines already have the highest number of techs and units available, and you want to give them 2 more.

Also, even if you adjust the stats of Catapracts to avoid buffing them, you end up nerfing them, since you need to pick up more tech for them to be viable, and they already are one of them most expensive units with some of the most expensive upgrades.

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They are arguably the best unit in the game.

  • Archer still need to outnumber catas by a wide margin to be effective.
  • Camels and halbs die while dealing almost zero damage, even if they outnumber them, with logistica, their high damage (and bonus) is applied to all near units, oh and trample damage also ignore armor. So saying that they are cost effective is an half-truth.
  • Heavy cavalry yes, usually is the best counter, but again, it depends by the number and what upgrades the knight line has. And again, catas have trample damage. So it could go either way.
  • Also, for being a unit trained at a castle, they take few seconds (20s), so their only weakness is that they have an high cost and they require expensive upgrades (though, you don’t need BL or BF).
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They stil have a lot HP to take arrows. Of course, they are worse than other Cav, but because of speed they can do still ok.
Aginst Halbs? Yes, they are not cost-effective, because Halbs are Trash, but they are still much more cost effective than other Cav. Halbs need to outnumber them masivly. And Camels - they trade even in cost against Imperial Camel in smaller fights. In larger - they win.So they are cost-effective against normal Camels. Fact they are created from Castle and have low TT hold them back more than cost.

Why would you “cancel” the Camel discount?
Do you want Byzantines to be just another FU Paladin civ?

.Byz is good where it is at, at the moment, no need for changes.

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Byzantines are totally fine as they are, no changes needed.

Fully upgraded paladin mean without last attack upgrade?

That’s quite slow. It means 2 stables will produce cav faster than a Byz castle (btw isn’t it the TT of the genoese xbow?)

Since we are discussing Byz I’m going to be throwing in something mostly harmless that would widen their options a bit: they should get Parthian tactics. They were renowed for horse archery too, it was mentioned in the AoK manual, but for some reason they left their CA to be crap. The lack of bloodlines would still make them a novelty option but at least it would work more often, and we would have a “FU minus bloodline” HCA again (before getting bloodlines Japanese had this one)

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Are you playing the game or just see stat?
Even u just see stat they still bad on equal resources.
If arbalesters don’t outnumber to hussar,they will also lose to them.
But the truth in the real game , cataphract can’t fight arbalesters , unless that is a game already over.
Halbs will do 16 extra damage to them , that’s not zero.
If u try to do a text ,that cataphract can’t beat halbs in equal resources even with more expensive upgrade.
And don’t forget elite cataphract are more expensive than palladin and have second highest expensive to upgrade in this game.
And how suck to tank the arrows, I just think this units are bad design if don’t give them some basics cavalier upgrade instead more expensive upgrade do really little job.
Anyone try to say cataphract are good units ,u guy next time random Byzantine, can try it on.
Byzantine now on 1vs1 is basically archer civilization

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Probably it is because of Byz characteristic - dont have all upgrades in any production Building. They miss Blast Furnace for Barracks, They miss BF and Bloodlines for Stable, They miss PA for AR.
When I think about it, thi is flawed logic, because their CA are allready weaker, because of lacking Bloodlines.

I always find fuuny fact, that in Medieval 2 Total War Byz have one of the best CA in the game, but here they have one of the weakest.

Byz Civ conception is really cool, but Byz Civ project is outdated. Remember, Byz are only civ without land-related change since AoC. They are basicly the same as 20 years ago!

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GC takes 22s, and 20s (catas) is still less than a lot of other UU like WW, OG, EA, BE, janissarys, conqs, mangudais, mamelukes, WE, CA.

This one, they could get, since they lack BL, a bit more armor and bonus vs pikes could be useful without making them OP. Still, is one more tech available for them…

Well, they don’t have to, bizz also have discounted ES and paladins, but even if you find yourself in this situation for some reason, they aren’t that bad, and they can do a lot of damage.

Half of what they deal to other cavalry, and catas in castle deal 18 without elite or logistica, with the last one, it gain even more bonus while killing all near unit.
Yes if you have to keep catas at bay for a bit the pike line work, and you can kill them with archers behind (but that combo works for everything) but even if you save gold, catas are more pop efficient, and can kill your counter units all day.

You don’t have to beat them on equal resources, catas have more mobility, they can avoid fights until you have the numbers, and still, on equal numbers, the catas value is a lot more high than a pike.

It’s their only “weakness” (with 150HP and high speed can either run away or fast close the gap), so I don’t think it’s a problem.

Can I do both?

And this is a bad thing? Where is written that they are an cavalry civ?

Byzantines are a Defensive civ, and in gampeplay, they are a Counter-Unit civ (they focus on units that are basic counters to other units).
Defensive civs should always have good Archers, since Archers and Siege are the only active defense style troops.

if melee cavalier units can’t tank , that’s mean they are suck , simple rule

Catas aren’t meant for tank, they are meant for dealing damage, that’s why they sacrifice a bit of HP and PA for trample damage and a huge bonus vs infantry.

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The point of Cataphracts, is that they have no direct counters. Even Arbalests are not as good against them as advertised.

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Is also one thing, i always forget, but always hit me.
Why Genitours are not affected by Byz civ bonus. Every other tech or bonus for Skirms affect them, why not this one?

Because the bizzantines bonus target very specific units, not a unit tipe in general.
Though, this could be changed to see some occasional but fun games.

It will be fun to play or watch, Byz have medicore raiding units so let them have the cheap one.

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Yes I agree, it would be a buff, but a very situational one, and it would be balanced since they would still lack BL.

You guys really need to know why byzantines were denied of bloodlines first, they were one of the best civilization in aok, but right now ethiopian camel>byzantine camel, not even a fully upgraded camel is still better than the one from byzantines it might only win cost effective but if you are going to invest in camel line better to invest in stronger camel line, such as indians, malians, saracens, persians, berbers, chinese, tatars etc.

Byzantines are not even close to the 15 best civs for 1x1, same like goths they are just a civ supposed to win with trash, but this is no longer aok or aoc, new units are in game with new bonuses, byzantines are outdated, their trash is not even competitive today. If the meta was like in 2001 to 2005 when big number of skirmishers was enough to win games in feudal age then i would agree that they are fine.

Bloodlines would help their cavalry line for team games, just by removing 10 HP from the cataphract, no one would complain, heck if you are tired of all its units in tec tree remove heavy cav arch.

About cataphract, its concept is oudated aswell, super expensive and weak vs other mounted units, ranged units counter most efficient infantry line, until AOC catas were decent and would put a good fight vs paladins but they would still losing, but on DE cataphracts loses to almost everything, eles, stronger camels, civs with attack bonuses like lithuanians and malians. It was true that catas countered archer back at the aoc days because they were able to break into the formations and cause the trample damage, but now they can’t break into formations and die miserably without hitting in most cases.

Balancing cataphracts to the new units in game requires a reduction in logistic price and even the elite upgrade, if they get bloodlines they should lose 10 hit points, even gaining 10 HP as result of the bloodlines they would still losing to leithis, boyards, eles, most paladins, indian camel, etc.

No one is asking for economic bonuses for them, just to give them bloodlines and price deduction for the UT, that wouldn’t change the civ identity and wouldn’t make them OP.

But if they refuse to give them bloodlines, just like they refused to give husbandry to teutons, then change logistic, it should apply to all their cavalry line, then it might be worth the high price.

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false. defense is a more important upgrade for melee units, and byzantine get it, where ethiopian do not.
furthermore byzantine camels cost 25% less.

and a small boost could help that, but giving Byzantines Bloodlines and BF is not a small boost.

it would imbalance them, yes people would complain.

except it does trample damage to them, so everything nearby takes damage when it attacks, and it has no proper counter.

is designed to counter melee units.

again designed to counter melee units.

slow tanks that should win against them.

again, tanky unit that should beat them.

you’re forgetting though how good trample damage is.

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