Byzantine Balance Suggestion

This probably will make the Tech OP AF. Can you imagine Paladins, even without BL and BF, with trample? Cmon, Catas with weaker stats even now are able to win agains Frank Paladins in large numbers (40 v 40, you can test this, if you dont belive me, i didnt belive either unless i did this), imagine what Paladins will do. This will also nerf Catas, because who will produce Catas when can have the same effect on normal units?

No, this is not the solution. If you want to buff Catas, just give them 1PA and add +2 vs Infantry, what allow them to kill FU Halb in 2 hits (now they need 3, with 2 hits they kill Halb w/a last armor). And lower the cost of Elite Upgrade.

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Not by a longshot. Byzantine Camels are the most cost-efficient in the game, despite having poor stats. Byzantines is about cost-efficient counter units.

Goths and Byz in the top 5 for higher ELOs.

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If you remove only 10HP you buff cataprhacts by 10HP, while also buffing their camels, hussars, paladins and CA.

They are supposed to lose against those units. A unit can’t win against all units in the game.

Yes, paladins with trample damage and anti halbs bonus, that not OP for sure.

I spend most of the time discussing how to improve the balance of civs so that all of them can be viable on 1v1 (like portos, italians, koreans and so on…) and I agree that they could use a bit of reduction of the cost on the elite upgrade, but giving them BL, buffing even more their UU and all their cavalry?

Their camels work fine, you are supposed to use them only defensively, you have the opportunity of outnumber your enemy, and even if you lose, you will always counter cost-efficiently.

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Who says logistic affects anti cav damage? 111

Ethiopian camel wins 1x1 vs byzantine camel, attack is more important in melee fights and for the guy who said cost effectiveness lol then hello berbers have cheap camels as well fully upgraded and it regens itself, please ban the civ too OP-said no one-.

And for the other guy who said paladin frank loses to full ecata he is so wrong, this is DE not the older versions units don’t break others formation they go around, that decreases the effects of the trample damage inflicted when units go trough formations.

Then again their camel is cheap but not free or half the price, in order to outnumber the enemy you have to invest more and since you lack economic upgrades your economy would be inferior, that is whyno one would pick them in a world with indians, berbers, malians, etc.

logistics gives bonus damage to infantry. which means paladins would be doing extra damage to all infantry, including pikes.

false. watch any pro game, they upgrade armor first for infantry/cav. also byzantine camels are cheaper. also why are you fighting camel vs camel?

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You got it wrong the guy says “Yes, paladins with trample damage and anti halbs bonus, that not OP for sure.”

+5 hidden damage is what logistic gives and thats all.

Oh yeah you would fight camel vs camel if you are in pocket position, you need to understand the decision making, pierce armor is for raidings and vs archers not vs melee.

read the link i posted.

" Logistica is a technology in Age of Empires II: The Conquerors that is unique to the Byzantines and can be researched at the Castle once the Imperial Age is reached. Once researched, it gives trample damage in a 0.5 tile radius to Cataphracts (attack bonus +5) and increases their attack bonus against infantry by +6."

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Still wrong antihalb bonus means it negates the attack from anticav units…why am i replying to this lol

his argument was that if you give byzantine logistica to all cavalry, Paladins will have an attack bonus vs halbs. which is true. Doct is not American, and English is not his primary language, so he doesn’t always get the wording right. still, it’s pretty easy to see what his argument is. he’s not arguing they would get resistance to Halbs.

Paladins, With Logistica, would deal 14+2 damage +(6 bonus to infantry), +5 trample damage. which means each attack, after upgrades, would deal 19 damage, and 5 damage to everything within 0.5 tiles (melee range). it means paladins go from 5 shotting a halb, to 3 shotting. and dealing 15 damage in that time to everything in melee range. think about what that means for Paladin vs Pike/Halb fights

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Test this. Bad Pathing actualy INCREASE effect of Logistica, because enemy units loger search for targets so they are longer in area of trample effect. Of course, trample damage always have some randomness, but I run 10 tests some time ago and 6 fights was won by Catas.

Remeber also, trample damage IGNORE Armor. So no matter what the units around Cata are, they always take 5 damage when Cata attacks. All of them.

From price of normal 20 Camels Byz can make 26. Yes, they still lose to Indian, Saracen, Malian and Berber in equal resources… but this is it. All other camels will die to Byz.

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Berbers are not even in the top 5 best civs, while Byzantines are, mostly because ALL Berbers have is cheap Cavalry, while Byz have Cheap Halbs, ESkirms and Heavy Camels, 2 of those units directly countering all the Berbers can do, for less resources than normal.

Berbers are actually weaker than Byzantines, and are usually relegated as a counter-pick civ against Mongols, Huns, Magyars, Turks, Cumans and Tatars, because Camel Archers destroy Cav Archers.

so 3 camel civs, and farimba.

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Farimba is one heck of an upgrade.
As Malians, going for Camels + Light Cav as main damage dealers, is actually viable, and I prefer them to Cavaliers.

Heavy Camels are already faster than Paladins, and Light Cav is Trash, so Farimba definitely rates high on my favourite UTs list.

agreed completely. oh, and fyi, farimba also applies to unique units. was testing some stuff with Lithuanians in a campaign i am making, and Farimba actually applied to Leitis.

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The same can be said about catas trying to track their primary target, it is only 5 hidden damage not enough to win in 1x1, only good in numbers if you manage to surround units, but it is harder in DE, so it depends in the microing and patrolling, testing scenarios are not an accurate representation of real battles, don’t make the same mistakes as spirit of the law.

Berber camel has full upgrades and it is only 5% expensive, that is how low the bonus is compared to the new civs.

Yeah you might be able to create 6 more camels but when trading 20 camels without bloodlines vs bloodline camels or archers those extra 6 camels you can produce would be nothing if you already lost 20, the same happens if you multiply it x100, the resources are not infinite, in order to outnumber your enemy you need more stables, so there is no point to compare, their camels are bad and worse than almost all the other camel civs, 25% discount is not >20Hp and +2 attack.

byzantines top 5? are you talking of age of kings, that was 20 years ago bro.

Berbers are an underrated civ after they nerfed the camel archer but i would pick them 100 times over byzantines and i have plenty years using byzantines.

Mother of God!

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No, i am talking right now. Proof is in the stats. At 1650+ ELO, thes are the top 5 civs.

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1650 players are so low, if that site would use numbers from 2k+ it would be more accurate, because right now that top couldn’t more far from reality.

LOL.

It is 1650+, which includes 2k ELO.

If you are that good, I cannot wait to see you on the top 3 players slot.