is anti archer (by definition of a cavalry, high HP, and faster, and highly cost efficient)
has area of damage, so when massed (something you achieve easily in post imperial game) they obliterate pretty much anything
sounds pretty much one of the best PostImp unit you could dream of.
And that is only on one unit. If there is really a mass archer, their paladins is still very good.
That said, they also have cheaper trash units and all useful upgrades.
Byzantines don’t need a buff. The thing they could have is a rework of their first Castle Unique Technology, which creates a DPS loss, the same way as we’ve seen a rework on the Mayan’s first Unique Technoloy.
Nope. nope and nope. No one will ever make Cataphract after this change. Literally.
On the other hand, you’re right. Byzantines cheap trash actually decreases in usefulness in post-imp, when most of your eco is wood and food, the lack of blast furnace really stings as both your halbs and hussars are somewhat weak.(Hussars especially due to the lack of bloodlines) tech. I would prefer to change the castle age UT to something that boosts the combat value of at least one of the trash units a little bit.
Byz can post imp constant produce from 9 Barracks and 9 Ranges Halbs and Skirms with 102 Vils, while generic Civ (with all Eco Upgrades) need 104 Vils to sustain production from 7 B/R, and to keep up with Byz need 133 Vils - what mean Byz can have 30 units more on field, or can field units faster after loses. Or smoething in between.
The problem with byzantines is the civ by design is coming short in multiple scenarios whereas some other civs are ridiculuously advantageous. Byzantines in theory gets stronger and stronger as the game goes on, aspecially in post imp scenarios. However, the design doesn’t give you much tools to help you get there and that is the biggest problem. The “eco” advantage of the byzantines is the trash unit cost converted into better economy and in theory the eco bonus you get from cheaper units gets bigger and bigger, most probably exceeding some other generic flat eco bonuses in late game scenarios. That being said, the design of the civ forces the player to play defensively(as the civ description suggests) until you get powerful enough to make a push and out-eco with cheaper units. However the power discrepancy between byantines and at least half of the other civs is too big in the first 3 ages of the game(even in imp + post imp against some civs). I’ve made a reddit post some time ago about the consept of balance changes in the game and I’ll do another one which will include exploring the flaws of byzantines in detail
you mean like say, stronger defenses, better map vision and cheap counter units to enable you to play defense and push for the late game? i think at best byzantines could use an early eco bonus to help them boom a little bit but beyond that byzantines have all the tools they need.
I’m aware of byzantines’ advantages as a civ, however the problem is that all of those pros are conditional, whereas a big chunk of the civs have flat eco/military bonuses with are very effective.
not really. more hp buildings is always useful, the cheaper trash/counter units means you can play the more cost effective longer game, the extra vision enables you to more quickly react on your defense and the cheaper age up allows you to get to the late game quicker. not conditional at all on most maps.
does it mean byzantines plays differently then most civs? absolutely.
but you can’t sit there and give a civ like byzantines an absolutely insane late game that no one can really compete with and say that its completely okay for them to be stellar elsewhere too.
and dont have anywhere nearly as wide a tech tree as byzantines do.
like i said. give them a small early game bonus to help them boom a little bit but they frankly don’t need a lot.
No they can’t. FU Paladins win comfortably against FU Cataphracts with Logistica. In fact even the FU Cavaliers of some civs like Malians and Bulgarians will win against them.
It depends on the type of test you run. With like 100 or more of each unit facing each other, trample damage will tip the scales to Cataphracts but in a more realistic say 20 on 20 battle the Paladins win the matchup. Albeit not by a big margin with maybe 20-30% HP left.
It was series of tests, some time ago.
10 tests 20 v 20 (Palas win every time)
10 tests 30 v 30 (Against standard FU Palas was something about 50/50 dont remember, Frank Palas win every time)
10 tests 40 v 40 (Against Frank Palas was 4-6 for Catas)
you know catas cost 10 food more and are produced in castles?
And logistica+elite upgrade is also quite expensive.
Nevertheless, Byzantines don’t need a lategame buff really. But I think a small building speed buff to their military production buildings could help them in their classification as a “counter” civ. Maybe even a discount to them or a slight eco bonus, as Byzantines are the only “defensive” civ suited for more open maps, where early eco is king.
Yep I know. It was more theorethical, than practical - we all know Byzantine player would not go into Catas if enemy can go Palas, they would rather spam theirs cheap Camels and/or Halbs.
Byzantines are one of the few Civs without Dark Age Eco bonus, Early Feudal Bonus and good booming Bonus, alongside with Bulgarians, Koreans, Magyars, Portuguese and Turks. But unlike them (except maybe Portuguese, they have gold discount, weaker earlier than food/wood discount), Byz also dont have Bonus for early Military (lets be clear, in Feudal Skirms and Spears arent bulk of an army. Yes, they are relativly common, but noone would fight with them. With exception of Daut). Byz have one of the weakest, if not THE weakest start in this game. They desperatly need early economic Bonus.
My propositions:
Houses cost 10 wood. Savings a little weaker than Malian bonus in DA, little better than Incas in terms of resources, but still need time for houses.
Change Greek Fire tech. Make effect +1 range for Fires Civ bonus (alongise with attack bonus) and give another effect - Mangonels and Trebuchets deal additional damage ws Siege (30 dmg). Alongside with building HP bonus, this would make Byz truly “Deffensive”, but not passive, because their Siege still lack 1 Range due lack of Siege Engineers. Besides, every Civ lacking SE have something as compensation.
Optional:
Units upgrades -25% cheaper. In my opinion better would be for them to be cheaper, than faster. This would allow them to go for them faster and make transition more smoothly. This would also make them decent on water, because thoe would tech into War Galleys/Fires faster than enemy and take water back.
Just curious. Did u forget Saracens or didn’t put there intentionally as u think they have better eco than these civs. Market (ab)using may be stronger than others but most of the players can’t use them effectively.
Honestly that is a decent bonus and maybe not as small as you think. I’d personally keep it for potential new civs.
It’s also way more than a eco bonus, it’s actually a walling bonus. It could definetely help byzantines and fit into their gameplan. But I already see people complaining about it as it would destroy the game.
But byz are defensive civ. Nevertheless I would prefer easier access to the counter units for their gameplan, it’s their “identity”.
I didnt forget Saracens. Remember, their Market also cost -100 wood, this is basicly free 4 houses, mill, 2/3 of Blacksmith, 50(!)palisade walls or 4 archers (gold from Market )
Alo would fit historicly, due to fact they have largest city in Europe in one time, so they can build it here.
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