Sort of. It only comes into play assuming both players build a Market. If you build a market to take advantage of the bonus and your opponent doesn’t (common on any open map where Feudal military + blacksmith opening is the norm) you’ll have no advantage in actual resources gained (actually being down 75 wood) until your opponent drops his own.
In reality, it just makes Saracen economy more readily balanced with a lesser investment upfront to have a market combined with better value from trades. And in the case we’re talking a map with fast castle potential (Arena, Hideout, etc) there’s a lot of superior eco bonuses for a pure boom that the Saracen one really doesn’t measure up to like how you make it out. In a feudal war it’s practically a non-factor except the rare possibility of using a cheaper market as a panic quickwall.
Byzantines needed either bloodlines or some other bonus for their cavalry, the change was supposed to have an impact on team games and maybe change their boring trash rush or archer+imperial for 1x1.
But it seems the devs refused to give bloodlines to a cavalry civ that already misses the last attack upgrade, they might get free town patrol as some users have been pushing and that would be all, be aware they might become 1x1 top tier civ with free town patrol 11
Late game byzantines is very strong but not as strong as people think imo. the camel line feels like a trap in late game. the discount bonus does not compansate the lack of bloodlines and blast furnace combined. If you opt for halbs, you’ll be very weak against siege units since your army comp will be arbs/skirms + halbs most probably. The idea behind playing byzantines was, if you can survive until late game, you’ll overwhelm your opponent with cheap trash units, but the discounts don’t feel that rewarding to me when playing the civ. As far as Cataphracts go, I stay away from that most of the time. Too expensive and too slow to mass.
If we consider removing Greek Fire Tech (and making effect Civ Bonus), then we’re getting free slot for UT.
The Siege Buff I gave is nice option, and not very overpowered (I think). But I have also other ideas.
One of them (I like the most) is UT name Heavy Lamellar Armor - Cavalry units (except Cata) and Militia line gain +30 HP. As OP this sounds, is actualy not. Byz dont have Bloodlines and Blast Furnace. Cav actualy gain only +10 HP, missing -2dmg. Their Paladin will still lose to FU one, as well as Hussar. Camel would be tied with FU one, and dont lose shamefully to Paladin anymore. But this would make their Cav better arrow sponges.
If you think Champ too is too much, I can give you that, but they need something good against someone with better Infantry, if they fail to go Catas. If we get buff to Hand Cannon, this is not nesessery. Their Champ will be in par with Viking one then (what fits very good historicaly)
Greek fire is now fixed, the accuracy is proportionally increased, and byzantine late game is more than fine, it’s considered to be one of the strongest in the game.
It’s such an underwhelming UT, I wouldn’t mind just removing it (instead of adding it as Civ Bonus) and replacing it with something less situational.
It’s one of those ‘no one ever researches this’ type of UT
My proposal for replacement would be a minor stat buff to Hussar. Not having bloodlines and not having blast furnace is quite a lot. Historically, it could make sense, the Byzantines often paid foreign tribes/armies to act as mercenaries, and much of the time these mercenaries were lightly armored horsemen.
It is very situational tech.
First, is pure water tech, what alone limits its usefullness.
Second, uplies only to the one type of unit, witch isnt even “main” water unit (right, it can be with this tech, but still Galeon better massed).
Third, Byz Fires are allready the best in the game.
If something is bad, cannot be excuse for improvment of something else. And Nomad isnt totaly useless, can help on closed maps to have more compact base, or opposite - have very spread base and not being vulnerable to being pop-capped if someone finds your houses. If we’re looking at useless UT, Madrasah and Orthodoxy is the thing. And Stronghold, but not because of effect, but because not suit Civ’s playstyle.
Personally, as a Byzantine player myself, I disagree whole heartedly that they are terrible in post-Imperial games.
The Byzantines already get a great heavy cavalry unit in the form of their Cataphracts, which have been buffed I might add, by reducing the cost in researching Logistica and Elite Cataphract, plus, they are better than Paladins in successfully resisting the common bane to all cavalry: the Halberdier.
Their naval tech tree is very good, and better that most other civs, with even a buff to their Fast Fire Ships from Greek Fire. Byzantines can train fully teched-up Arbalesters and Elite Skirms, and their Heavy Camels are cheaper. Then, Byzantines get all generic gunpowder units: Hand Cannoneer, Bombard Cannon. Their Bombard Towers and Castles are the strongest defensive structures in the ENTIRE GAME.
So…I fail to understand why extending Logistica’s effect to the Byzantine Paladin would “fix” them.
And as I stated above, Byzantines are fine.
I think the Byzantine water discussion is not that important. No one chooses Byzantines for their water. Other civs like Vikings and Portuguese are just way better. So this UT only matters if you pick random on water maps and get Byz…
People pick byz for water. People simply don’t play water. The reason “nobody picks byz for water” is because nobody plays water. Pros pick byz on water maps and hybrid maps all the time.
You were saying the Byzantines have full blacksmith, but they don’t.
The only Blacksmith techs that effect water gameplay are Fletching, Bodkin Arrow, and Bracer, and that only for the Galley-line. Now, if you meant that the Byzantines have full navy-benefiting Blacksmith techs, then yes you are correct. But when I read your comment, I assumed you meant the WHOLE Blacksmith tech tree.
And again, I never said that they were the “top civ” on water. Just that compared to civs that are generic on water, like Franks, Celts, Persians, and Teutons, the Byzantines are better because they get a specific civ bonus that affects their gameplay on water, in this case: Greek Fire the Castle Age tech.
I would say that Saracens are “better than most” civs on water because of their faster firing Galleys, but I would not say that they are “top civ” on water. That title goes to Koreans, Vikings, Italians, and Portuguese.
20 v 20 is already a fairly large fight. And yea Pals win it comfortably with about 30% of their HP left and more than half of the units surviving to fight another day.
Anyways FU Pals aren’t available to that many civs so they aren’t really a huge issue. When you’re using Cataphracts the bigger problem is that ranged units specifically Arbs and especially HCA with equal resources will trounce you. Even without micro these units pretty much yield a coin toss fight.
And even FU Cavaliers will fight you on roughly even ground and those are a lot cheaper saving on the Paladin upgrade and Logistica.
Here is a video of some common matchups of Cataphracts:
I will say though they do amazingly well against Halbs and Camels. In a sense they are a unit that doesn’t have a hard counter but fights against ranged units should still be avoided at all costs.
That’s how the game works, some units, bonuses, techs are situational.
It enough that they are useful in that situation. About half of the UT are situational, don’t tell me that you research yasama every game with the japs, because it’s a useful UT, but you don’t use towers every game.
Nomad on the other hand is useless, it’s a UT that can be used in all maps yes, but it’s useless in all maps. Once you max out with houses, TCs castles (and you’ll build a lot of them) it’s not that common that the enemy go and target your houses to make you pop capped, in fact it basically never happens.
Maybe you’ll lose 1 or 2 houses, and have to take 1 vill away from wood to rebuild them… big deal…
Greek fire instead makes your FS better at chasing galleys, which in the nowday metà are the “main” and better unit only in post imp, when they have all the upgrades (including SW, which isn’t cheap) and are massed.
I’ll take Greek Fire over nomads for a civ UT every day without even thinking about it…
UT doesn’t kick in until you have a Castle up, so that’s no salvation for the UT… I don’t remember people prioritizing Byzantines in HC4 on water maps, but I must admit, I haven’t watched ALL the games. I also don’t see people picking byzantines for water in the ladder, Italians and Portuguese tend to be by far the most common pick, followed by Vikings and Malay.
In full water maps people always prefer italians, vikings and portos, but byzantine are at the 4th place, and that is partially because of greek fire too, since it means that enemy ships can micro less, demos explode at a further distance, and enemy fires take damage sooner (and faster).
Usually, they are preferred in hybrid maps, where they have a better land army than Italians or portos, and where fires are always the best choice (you never go for galleons in such maps).
Byzantine can actually beat basically every water civ, with the exception of italians. But since Italians are almost always there, having portos or vikings is better, that’s why you never see byz.
Makes this Byz top Water Civ? No.
