Rofl
“hey guys this change doesn’t help camels enough let’s not do it” (coming from the person that says camels don’t need help)
Like literally impossible to please you…
Its specifically minor in order to accommodate conservatives
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To repeat because some people can’t seem to understand this.
The end result helps camels in fights against units mixed with pikes
The pike will still camels (and heavy camels) in the same number of hits except for some extreme situations which are removed (deficit tech, Burmese etx).
BUT the pike is doing slightly less damage so the units mixed with the camel are killing them slightly slower. Thus allowing camels to be slightly more useful in mixed match ups.
Eg camel + knight vs knight + pike (common frank build)
Currently it takes minimal effort to add a mix of pikes to almost completely negate camels.
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But not halbs. I think it is silly that camels as a gold counter unit are even heavier countered by the trash counter. It should be the other way around. Camels should do a bit better against spear line in general than the knight line. They are still countered by militia line and arbalests which makes them still situational enough.
In general the camel line could use some rework. They perform just ok-ish against the new cavalry UUs, which they should actually counter. Thats very counterintuitive. Only with the various bonusses some civs have they are viable - as counter.
But making them a bit better against the spear line could be a beginning.
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While i would love to see camels with higher PA this literally goes against what the devs just did to the Indians. They took away their PA. What do you think are the chances they would then give PA to every camel?
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Unfortunately there exists a mindset that knights should perform better simply because they always have. I wonder if it is because these guys mainly only ever watch/play aoe as opposed to other games… So they can’t accept other possibilities…
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Quite regardless, I hope they give +1 PA to Heavy Camels (and Imp Camels)
Indians also suffered -1 melee armour, and they need an eco nerf if they’re ever going to get properly balanced. (Or the removal of Husbandry XD)
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My dream camel would be +1 dmg, +1 PA and - 2 bonus dmg from pikes but whether that happens is highly doubtful.
Yeah that makes sense. I guess they can’t get the buffs they need for 1v1 while keeping their eco that i guess favours the late game ie protected maps or TGs
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did i say lets not do it? and for the record, I’ve said in the past that I’d be fine with giving camels 1 pierce armor, but hey, let’s ignore that.
what i don’t want, is what YOU WANT, which is for the camel to be more well rounded. that isn’t what its designed to be. the fact that its damage output is SO LOW against anything other then cavalry is a big clue to that.
couple that with the low training time, which where non castle units is concerned its reserved for units that either 1) serve a counter unit role, or 2) have a big drawback to them (see the slow speed of elephants).
you want camels to be more well rounded?
1 attack isn’t going to do that. they are still a unit that has low attack even post buff. they are still a unit that wouldn’t be good against anything other then knights.
your “Dream buff” doesn’t do much anything other then be a way for people to say “see we showed them love” and they would still be useless against everything they already are useless against.
no its not, i just don’t see the point of such a pointless change “yay it can survive 1 more attack against pikes, which means its just a bit better against something its not supposed to be good against”.
you want to see me happy with changes? show useful changes to units that need it, and not meaningless changes that do nothing to change the fact that the camel is anything other then an anti cavalry unit. 1 attack and 2 less damage from spears ain’t going to do it.
but the problem isn’t that it’s minor. the problem is that its literally inconsequential and thus doesn’t really serve a purpose.
this is a bonus i’d be fine with. giving camels 1 PA baseline helps them a bit in team games where they currently see minimal use.
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Honestly, I’m glad.
But are you sure? That’s not what I read in for example this post
Where you tear into the suggestion
I believe it’s argued in that thread that the +3 attack doesn’t really matter, and the Paladin hp doesn’t really feature in your answer.
Remember there’s no shame in admitting you’ve changed your mind. If anything the ability to change your mind would be admirable 
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I think there’s great shame in pointing out believed hypocrisy when it’s unrelated to the topic.
He didn’t mention it. Why did you?
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To OP (On subject) your suggestion doesn’t take into account the extremely high likelihood that the Camels will have their armor upgrades and the extremely low likelihood that the Pikemen will have their attack upgrades. Right now, Camels die in five hits against pikemen regardless of the attack upgrade on the pike and decreasing the bonus damage will actually make them survive 20% longer unless the pike player gets the attack upgrades, something they would not do in pretty much any circumstance otherwise. That’s actually a big change when pikemen already attack very slow.
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i have no issues with giving them 1 pierce armor because it helps them in team games and does nothing for them offensively. but there is no reason Camels need to be more well rounded offensively. it’s not their role.
and Paladins don’t need nerfs either.
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incorrect but you have a point
camels w bloodlines die in 6 hits. only a pike with +2 extra damage is killing it in 5. eg burmese pikes or a case where the camel hasnt taken any armour tech vs full damage tech on pike, early imperial magyar pikes vs camels etc, indian camels that cant get the final MA upgrade etc etc
but you are correct in pointing out that with the change if the pike owner doesnt take a damage upgrade their pikes will take 7 vs 6 hits to kill a camel. i was thinking only of melee civs which would naturally take that damage tech.
but then again im really not impartial to allowing a camel to survive 1 extra pike hit if the pike owner doesnt tech. that is hardly going to change a camel into a pike counter or even remotely as effective as a knight vs pikes, they’re still doing 6 damage(and thats if you can match the pike armour) at 2 rof vs 10 dmg at 1.8 rof thats half the dps
so either we leave it as it is where cases exist that camels literally can be killed as fast as a knight and there’s absolutely nothing the camel owner can do OR we create a case where the pike owner HAS to keep up with tech or else kill camels 17% slower…
make an underused unit slightly better or leave OP scenarios… 
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Or maybe stop acting like a victim whenever somebody disagrees with you. Nobody likes drama queens. If you post a suggestion, you should be open for discussion, not throw a tantrum whenever things do not go your way.
I proposed 1 PA for camels because that way they can tank a little bit more fire from ranged units, especially CAs and TCs (they still get +1 extra damage from them, even though the camels=ships era should have been over). That way they are a bit more versatile, but still far from a knight in terms of performance. They still lack 1 PA and A LOT of the damage a knight can do, while they cost roughly the same. Camels would still be nowhere close to knights.
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Something that surprises me a lot is that the premise of this topic is that the knight player can add pikes to counter camels, but nothing is said about what the camel player could do in return to counter pikes. What about skirmishers or, pls forgive me for mentioning an evil meta unit, crossbows?
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Incomplete, maybe, but incorrect makes it seem like what I’ve said broadly is wrong. I didn’t consider bloodlines, with bloodlines a pike takes six hits instead of five but it doesn’t at all change the scenario as I’ve outlined, where pikes are unlikely to have their attack upgrades and camels are likely to have their armor upgrades, but that currently isn’t a problem because the bonus damage precisely covers it.
This isn’t “keeping up with a tech”. If we were to make pikes require both attack upgrades, the blacksmith upgrade cost would dwarf the cost of the Pikeman upgrade. It’s not like you have the option of neglecting your armor upgrades in order to get that pivotal threshold on your pikes. That means that someone wanting to run Knights against a camel civ would have to (in the best case) double it’s blacksmith upgrade costs if they want to blend in pikes, and more if they want any armor for the pikes. That’s a huge nerf.
I’m not even saying it’s not warranted. I haven’t given it that much time for thought. I’m just saying you’re understating the effect it’d have and that it’s really not a simple tweak. It’s quite significant in the grand scheme of things. 400 resources required in the wrong spot of a build can wipe it out.
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Ever since Indians lost their extra MA, I wanted this one for them as a civ bonus. +3 (as +2 will not change the battle outcome) camel armor for Indians Camel. It will be +1 if you reduce pikes bonus damage by 2. I think Indians Camel deserve to win against pike in 1v1 (just like knights) and against other civs Camel.
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That’s where the meta has been gravitating to. Like they removed their classification as ships… and the Indian ones received extra pierce armor. Good that they nerfed Indian camels, though.
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thats because camels were so hard countered that they weren’t even used. big difference then making htem knights that can kill knights. camels are still bad against anything that isn’t a knight basically.
but Indians lacked the knight line entirely, and now are a terrible civ.
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They also counter Cav Archers very effectively.
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okay, read knight as “anything cavalry, except cataphract”. and my statement is true.
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