Can Hindustanis stop Italians?

Condottieri eats gunpowder units. And if I want to send my Hussars or Cav Archers, and the best Camels to action, oh hey look, Genoese Crossbowmen snipes them easy. And don’t bother making any infantry, for they are also Genoese Xbowmen and Hand Cannoneer food.

How could I stop an italian army of Genoese Crossbowmen, Cannoneers, Condottieri and Heavy Cavs as Hindustanis? They’re another counter civ like Byzantines, and it seems like there virtually no way to counter Italians… cheap trade units means more trade units, more trade units means more gold, and in turn, more gold means you can train literally anything you wish.

so my last game as Hindustanis against Italians, they screw me over badly.

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Raid their home. Italians is the king of counter and you don’t want to fight their army

Hard counter civilizations are a great thing. It’s needed to stop a civ from becoming too strong.

Hindustanis have the stronger early and mid game due to stronger eco. if you let Italians get to genoese xbow + condo + HC you didnt attack early enough


You probably didnt need camels.

I think Italians isnt a good matchup for Hindustanis, but I would probably use HCA as my main units and try to keep a mass alive to snipe the conditierri, and add anti range units:

  • 1v1: HCA + Hussars + Skirms
  • 2 Hind. vs 2 Ital: HCA + Onagers + BBCs.

Or if you were in a MP as a non “only Hindustanis” team, you should make a reasonable combo with your teamates, and hope that Siege Engineers helps for your Onager micro.

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Ghulams make the job! And till the opponent research infantry techs you can make a lot of damage.

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Italians has stronger early game. Italians saves 195f 30g gold thanks to 15% age discount until Castle Age. Hindustanis villager discount is a lot of less (50f in Dark Age and 50f -75f from Feudal Age per 10-15 villager). Mid game is more close but I think Italians is still better. Generally Italians is better civ, new Hindustanis is underpowered and needs buff in my opinion.

Pros consistently put Hindustanis in S tier lol


Hindustani bonus scales better and it’s more flexible, while Italians bonus it’s good but hard to exploit at its maximum potential, as it requires precise timings.

Also, hindustanis have better counter units in the early game for everything that the Italians can throw at them (better camels, gulams, more food for pike/skirms) then as a general rule if you let Italians reach imp, they deserve the win.

hindu eco bonus also make managing eco much easier for all the game, while italians just give you a discount on cliking up in the very specific moment. Hindu bonus makes it far easier to manage and develop your economy for a boom, while italians do not. at the end of the game, the amount of res saved and the efficiency of it, is not even close.

Hindustanis vil discount is perphaps the strongest eco bonus in the game, while italians is probably even worse than something like Ethiopians. also italians lack halberdiers and geno xbows are bad against anithing non-cav and have the worst elitè upgrade in the game

so you can have the initiative and attack them with the good scout you have (bonus vs building, food saved from vills) and already be in advantage and then follow up with ghulam, against which italians either have to go knight or champs, cause condos don’t exist in castle and are weak to begin with against anithing non-gunpowder. if they go knight, you have some of the strongest camel, if they go champs, you have the strongest HC in game basically.

of course if italians get to their ideal comp hindustanis can struggle, but that means the hindu player basically let them, cause the two civs are not even close in terms of power atm. italians is bottom tier

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Numbers talk, game based on numbers. Italians discount is bigger. Last nerf killed Hindustanis. Best case scenario, Hindustanis create 60 villager in Castle Age and save 450f (it was #### before) in Castle Age. Italians saves 150f, 120g from Imperial Age, 100w, 58g from Ballistis as well as 50w 50g from every Bombard Cannon and 10g 9f from every Hand Cannoneer. Besides, Italians is already one of the weakest civilization in the game. New Hindustanis is even weaker than Italians.

Hindustanis can’t survive against strong early game civilizations. Hindustanis early game is now worst in the the game. Other than Hindustanis, there is no civilization in the game only saves 80f-100f until Castle without military bonus. That’s why I said Hindustanis villager discount should be nerfed to 8%/12%/16%/20%. Last nerf killed Hindustanis.


So if I didn’t rush them enough and they still go imperial, is there any way to stop them, or I am done for?

Very hard matchup for hindustanis, i dont think there is a easy way to deal.
– Hindustanis have 9 range hc so i think hc+hussar can take down geoese xbows+ condettiero. Also italian compostion is gold heavy (40+35) so as long as you take good fight you opponent will run out of gold way faster then you.

Xbox, Genoese+Condettiero easily take down Hand Cannoneer + Hussar but it isn’t equal match up, 2 gold vs gold+trash composition. In Late Game, Italians is stronger than Hindustanis. In early game, Italians also better. In Castle Age, matcup is close, slightly advantageous for Italians. Italians is stronger in general.

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I guess it is something like a 70%/30% win in favor of italians at equal skill level.

I think both civs in this matchup are gold heavy.

Italians have slightly better trash units (PMA for pikes), and Condo > Ghulam in a head on fight. You should not forget that Italians got FU Hussars.

I think both civ want to go Hussars in the late game. Hindustanis got Imp camels to counter Hussars and Italians got gxbows to counter both. Then we roll back at ghulams/skirms/hc to counter gxbows, which you dont really want to do against hussars.

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@AbledManatee867 @Zelley00 . If italians mass hussar + gxbows; not just hindustanis, nearly non of the civs have a change. Maybe byzantines with cata or mayans with 100 hp eagles can handle but i dont remember an effective combo againts it.

I would pick hindustanis cheap vills over cheap imp as a best bonus, as it means that you boom way more than getting to age 4 a bit faster, as more vills also means more resources income.

By the way, considering cheap imp a castle age bonus is a biased reasoning… I can see the argument for seeing cheap castle age a feudal bonus, but as most games don’t even get to imp, having cheap imp doesn’t really matter, otherwise byzantines would be considered OP.

Well a rush is your best bet against Italians, but not necessarily. Italians composition is strong but hard to get going, and the civ especially relies on powerspikes, if you know how to handle them you should be fine.

Also, you don’t necessarily have to rush them, but you shouldn’t either let them reach the post imp status without having delt some kind of damage, or got some advantage.

I would expect the following compositions to perform fairly well against hussars + gxbows

  • eagles/huskarls: counter both despite being expensive. Probablyalso ghulams/woad raiders/berzerkers
  • halberdiers + siege onagers
  • arbalesters + halberdiers: I think arbalesters to perform well against xbows due to +1 range and -0.2s attack delay

Italians do have tools against these compositions, but that is beside the point.

You mean byzantines eco vs hindustanis eco ? Yeah Hindustanis eco is better. But compared to Italians, the difference isnt that big anymore:

Expected saved resources Hindustanis vs. Italians for 1 TC:

  • Before clicking feudal: 40f vs 0f
  • At feudal: 40f vs 75f
  • before clicking castle: 115f vs 75f
  • At castle, 40 vils: 115f vs 195f+30g
  • castle 1 TC at 60 vils: 350g vs 195f+30g, 100w+60g if balistics
  • castle 1TC at 80 vils: #### vs 195f+30g
  • clicking imp at 80vils: #### vs 345f + 150g

So hindustanis looks worse until argubly mid castle age, asduming single TC. The additional food saved late dark age and late feudal age mean nothing (i.e. has no more use) compared to the cheaper age ups because you are trying to bank them. Italians shoukd have more resources early feudal and castle, when it matters for upgrade.

I wouldnt say Italians non fish eco is better, but it isnt that of a clear cut to me. Hindustanis eco only gets way stronger late castle age or when multi TC booming.

No I was talking about italians eco bonus here, but it applies to byzantines too of course.

Having a constant discount is easier to use and more flexible, as you can adjust your eco as long as the game goes. Italians eco bonus can give a strong powerspike, but it’s harder to exploit.

Also, the comparison on just 1 TC is super biased, you’ll want to add at least 2 TC as hindustanis in the first second of castle age to pump out more vills and faster than Italians.

Considering a more flexible food bonus, and a decent scout bonus, I would say that hindustanis feudal is better. Early castle age too is better, as you have units that gives you more map control in the form of camels and gulams.

I didnt say Italians bonus is better, I said it is not a clear cut before mid castle age. Flanks in tram game going 1 TC full xbows into fast imp is rather common, and in this case Italians bonus is a lottle better for the first half of the game.

As hindustanis you do not 3+ TC boom in every situation, it depends on how much pressure you get. If your oppinent all in, booming is a bad move, the vil discount isnt enough to produce enough military + 3TC vil production.

I disagree that the italians bonus is hard to use, you play normal and get it, just like Hinsustanis. Ir is just weaker while booming or going in the later stage of the game.

This is besides the point, We are comparing the age up discount and the vil discount:

It wasnt question on the overall strength of the civ, only on these 2 eco boni. I am saying that if we exchange these 2 boni, Italians will not feel stronger until mid castle age or until multi TCs boom.

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