Can I receive some criticism about these Balance Changes

I’m gonna double down on these balance changes, this time much more calmed and composed.

Scouts receive +1P armor starting in Feudal Age
Janissaries are no longer classified as archers

Siege Workshop costs -100 wood
Military units cost -20% wood (instead of -15%) except siege weapons
War Wagons cost 5W more (115W 60G to compensate for the above change)
Decrease Effective Frame Delay (Frame Delay) of War Wagons.
I don’t really like these changes for Koreans, they are quite “boring” and don’t change much about not fun early gameplay with this civ. I think that some aspects of the civ should be thoughtfully remade in order to make the civ interesting. Something completely unique like additional TC for Cumans, Siege Workshop in Feudal Age, Khmers’ hoping into houses, farmers not having to drop off food. At the same time they could lose additional tower range in castle age if it makes for any difference.
or even give them a new unique unit which one of criteria is dealing with eagles.

Ballistics free (requires University)
All units cost -20% gold
Either that or I would like to see something untypical and unique just as it is the case with Koreans.

Padded, Leather, Ring Archer Armor free
Dock technologies cost -30% instead of -50%

Battle Elephants are no longer 15% faster as a civilization bonus
Battle Elephants +1 attack per age (starting from Castle Age) or Battle Elephants +2 attack in Castle, +3 in Imperial Age.
Tusk Sword (Battle Elephants move 15% faster instead of +3 attack)

lose Chemistry gain Bracer

get Siege Ram
Leitis’ cost +10G (70F 60G)
Maximum amount of attack gained by Knights and Leitis from relics down to +3 (from +4)

get Siege Onager

Siege Engineers free (requires University)

Archery Ranges cost -40% (105W)

Start with +100 Stone

Elite Cataphract Upgrade -400F (1200F 800G)

Shotels’ cost -5F (45F 35G)

Karambit Warriors’ cost -5G (30F 10G)

Elite Kamayuk -1 melee armor
Fabric Shields (Kamayuks, Slingers, Eagles +2/+2P armor)
I know it doesn’t sound intuitive, because Incas is a decent and versatile civ but hear me out. Every infantry melee unit dominate eagles thanks to the bonus damage and better melee stats as long as they can catch up to them. Giving eagles one more melee doesn’t change this state. There’s one other situation where this specific +1 melee armor changes the melee fight and it is against… other eagles. Mayans’ UT gives eagles +40 hp which is completely fine, Aztecs’ UT gives eagles +4 attack. All fair. I can see an argument of Slingers as a response to it, but then Aztecs and Mayans have their own answers. For Mayans it is Plumed Archers for Aztecs it is huge eco lead, Atlatl Skirms or even Onager line. Currently Mayans’ and Aztecs’ eagles win against Incas’ (Mayans’ by 3 strikes, Aztecs’ by 1) so Inca player has to go for towers and villager push in feudal age. And even after this change (one more melee armor) Mayans’ and Aztecs’ eagles would still win against Incas’ eagles (Mayans’ by 2 strikes, Aztecs’ by 1). As for additional melee armor for Slinger in result I don’t think it changes anything important (since this unit is meant to be efficient against melee infantry and it doesn’t deal enough damage to be killing cavalry).

Missionaries get +1 range (8 total = 1 less than a standard monk) or are faster (speed increased from 1.1 to 1.25 = 0.1 less than Knights)

War Galley decrease collision size (the opposite of what was done to Steppe Lancers)

Steppe Lancers -5G (70F 40G)
Elite Steppe Lancers Upgrade +20HP +1Att (total: +40HP +3Att)

Hand Cannoneers are no longer classified as archers
(removes attack damage done to HC by Skirmishers)
5% accuracy improvement

Which change is the most unnecessary - why, which one makes the civ too powerful, in what situations?
Can I receive some thoughtful and productive criticism about these balance changes preferably by experienced players (in 1v1s).
Do you have any other good ideas?

I would like people to NOT use data from “” as an argument for or against any changes.
I would like people to not use arguments as “if a civ is not the best nor the worst it means it shouldn’t be changed in any way” - sometimes it’s about making the civ not one-dimensional but more versatile yet unique in its own way and sometimes it’s just a necessary buff/nerf to the unit or a civ bonus.
Thank You.
Hopefully devs can get some inspiration from this thread.

If you think that these changes would be good for the game leave the thread a <3 .

Best Regards,


I like most of what I see but disagree with the Lithuanians nerfs. They haven’t even broken 50% winrate at the highest level of play since release and you want to nerf them?

I also don’t think magyars or saracens need buffs.

You can say not to use winrates, but why wouldn’t we? Literally nothing we have seen in the past two months shows Lithuanians are overpowered.


For me, giving them Siege Ram is massive buff.

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10g increase, losing 1 relic bonus is massive nerf.
You’re literally nerfing one of their 3 total bonuses by 25%. Not only that, but its a bloody deniable bonus at that


The Scouts one is not bad, but it should apply only to Imperial age. All the Turks bonuses are for late Castle and Imperial Ages.

Janissaries should still be Archers, as they are just HC UUs, and would otherwise lack Trash counters, which is needed because they do a lot of damage.

They just need the Wood discount increase. Siege Workshops are not that expensive to build, and War Wagons are good enough as it is.

Would do nothing. Gold discount increase would have much better results.

They already have tank archers with Pavise, and their Dock Tech discount is the only thing keeping them viable against Vikings.

Uneeded, Vikings are OK as it is.

Khmer already too a huge hit, they do not need more nerfs. They were amongst thye worst performers last month.

This would be cool.

Lithuanians need neityher buffs or nerfs, at this point.

No needed.

Not needed.

Not needed.

I do not know what this would even achieve.

This one is OK.

Not needed.

Not needed.

Incas already have very bad winrates in 1650+ this month. A nerf like this would basically delete them from the game. Tower Rush nerfs for DE already crippled Incas and Koreans badly.

No needed.

They are Raiders, and they already kill Villagers much faster than Scout line units. They need no buffs.

HCs are supposed to be Archers, otherwise tehy would not have a Trash counter, and would be OP.
I do agree on the accuracy increase.

There are some things I disagree with but this one in particular

How are civs with bad archers supposed to counter them if they’re not weak to skirms, since siege is ineffective with BBC support and cavalry is only a soft counter

Thats a buff for their eagles and slingers tho and Kamayuks remain same

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No, they get - Melee Armour, which is an unnecessary nerf.
They already are like Castle trained slow Steppe Lancers.

what? Elite Kamayuks have 1 melee armor, he’s suggesting it to make it 0 to compensate for the improved Couriers tech (for some reason he calls it fabric shields)

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Because it’s called Fabric Shields.
but it’s an unneccesary change anyway


ah they changed it in DE. I don’t think its unnecessary, Incas have the worst eagles, this might help

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That still would nerf them until they get the Fabric Shields UT.

Well they’re not good until you get the UT anyway

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I think Incan Eagles are perfectly balanced. Incan Eagles are the best vs Longbowmen, Rattan Archers, Mangudais, Cavalry Archers. Are Mayan and Aztec Eagles better? Yes. Is that a problem? No. If Fabric Shields gave +2/2 what would be different? They would still die to Infantry and Heavy Cavalry.
They can have the same role as Aztec and Mayan Eagles. And don’t forget: Fabric Shields affects 3 units while El Dorado only 1

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Because winrates are inaccurate.

Indeed, the relic bonus is perfect in the current state. Though leithis could use a nerf, everyone is using leithis as liths these times.


Ballistics for free is actually a very good deal even if it requires to build a university. Getting that instantly (when the university is built) can easily change the tide of a big battle, not the mention that you the reasources of its cost.

But its also keeping them at a much better level versus other water civs. Nerf vikings aswell.

Vikings definitely need a nerf on water, the question is what nerf should they get. Tbh I’m not sure if I agree with a longboat nerf, but I’m pretty sure that reducing the imperial age water discount to 15% would be a good change, since they are already too strong in late game on water maps.

I don’t think khmers were bad last month, but I also disagree with any khmer nerf.

I love this. Magyars feel pretty weak novadays anyways, and this would encourage them to go with cav archers.


Karambits are underrated.

They rather need a decreased upgrade cost.

Could be interesting, I’d definitely give it a try.

It is a buff though. Also, winrates are inaccurate.

Maybe he doesn’t research Fabric Shields if he doesn’t have any Kamayuks.

Cheaper Archery Ranges makes no sense for Magyars because they have powerspikes in the Feudal Age. They have no eco that’s the issue.
About Bulgarians: I would give them Paladin back. Stirrups makes no sense for the Knight-line. Rubenstock and mbl had good times with Bulgarian Paladins in BoA2

I’m talking about Kamayuks, they get a big boost with the pierce armor making them hard to stop

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We don’t need to wait 2-3 months for a major tournament to see how OP Leitis are.

The unit barely has any counters (if any at all), they are the cheapest Heavy cavalry unit in the game (after keshiks) and with +4 relics the unit can trade cost effectively even vs Indian Imperial Camels, unit which are supposed to be cavalry killers. Back in AOC days, if a unit was strong with little counters, it had very expensive upgrades, and long time to tech into (like mamelukes and cataphracts)

Main reason lithuanian civ didn’t break 50% winrate is simply because the playerbase is too slow to adapt to balance changes imo. And they don’t feel safe picking new-ish untested civs, and they would rather just pick their best civ on a certain map, and just try the meta build. Also, the OP side of Leitis doesn’t come out too much in 1v1s, I am more focused on it’s teamgame aspect, where u can easily boom up to big leitis numbers.

Also, you can’t accurately read the stats from the top bracket at all currently, because the games played sample is simply way too low. The gameplay being split between 9 different maps also makes it harder to see, and gives fewer game samples for competitive maps.


Hand Cannoneers and Janissaries no longer classified as archers

Too powerful without trash counters

I like this. It buffs (+1 melee armor) Slingers and Eagle Warriors but keeps the Kamayuk the same (-1 and then +1 melee armor). I love playing Incas, but they struggle against infantry. So, adding +1 melee armor would help just a little bit. This further encourages the Inca player to produce Slingers as the proper counter.

Ballista Elephant deathball is still a problem for both Khmer and other civs. A nice nerf might be to limit the maximum damage a group of ballistas and/or scorpions can do to a specific enemy unit per second. That is, passthrough and splash damage from the deathball are ignored on a specific enemy if that specific enemy already took a full bolt hit during that time period.

This would result in no change when a single scorpion fires on a group of enemies. One enemy would take the full hit and the other enemies would receive the passthrough damage.

This would result in no change when 50 scorpions fire on a single enemy. That enemy would take the full bolt hit from each of the 50 scorpions and die.

But when 50 scorpions fire on 50 enemies, each enemy could only receive a maximum of one full bolt hit of damage for second.

I recognize this might be too difficult to program. So, alternatively, perhaps just eliminate all scorpion/ballista passthrough/splash damage on rams. Rams soft counter the deathball now, and this would make them more of a hard counter.

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Even at all skill levels lithuanians are shown as balanced.
So are thousands of games are inaccurate measure of balance. You cant claim sample size there.

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