There have been multiple threads over this very topic over the years, but it seems like nothing has changed. I’m an avid nomad player and somebody picks Spanish on almost EVERY SINGLE NOMAD game (team games). It is extremely frustrating to start a new nomad game and the first thing you see, both your team and the opposite team has Spanish. Conquistadors are one thing, but can we remove the 30% faster building speed on the first TC? I would love to see a little more civ diversity on nomad maps.
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I’d be fine with this only if we buffed them on non Nomad maps.
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I hope you understand that Spanish get 1-2 vills yes, but if you nerf them, Lithuanians, Malians and Persians are the next best (Malians for example can get an early fishing ship which is essentially the extra vill Spanish get).
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I have no issues with that. Spanish are among my favourite civs, so any buff is actually very welcome.
Yes, but I won’t have to face a single civ in almost every single nomad game.
I would say I hate Spanish on Nomad as much as the next guy, as I find picking Spanish is often a very cheesy way to win the game without really being good at multiple aspects of the game, but I also think that there is a learning element in beating Spanish on Nomad because they teach you to not open the classic Knight/Crossbow, but rather do something like 3TC boom with defensive Monks, which generally counters Spanish fairly well if they go for a low eco Conq spam. There are also other elements like not panicking from a Castle in your face, beating him to Castle Age (which you should if he goes to Stone, especially if you win water) and learning to pick your upgrades (for example Skirms with no armor and +2 attack do very well vs Conqs already should you go the Skirms route).
In general I suggest to ban Nomad because the map is very Castle-drop oriented and aside from civ win considerations (which one shouldn’t really bother with until at least 2k, and better if 2.4k), aside from that, the map is very random: for example it is possible for all the gold to be generated on the opponent’s side of the map, which sometimes can lose the game on the spot. When you spawn, the emphasis is on dropping TC as soon as possible, so generally you can’t really gain a good understanding of where the gold/stone piles are. Also, the map has too much stone, which makes spamming Castles, Stone walls etc. very viable. In general, any map that has excessive amounts of Stone plays in a very boring way. I recommend to use 1 of 3 bans on Nomad. It’s fun once in a while but it’s essentially a glorified Castle drop into UU map and the diversity you allegedly have on this map according to its defenders is vastly exaggerated.
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What if we remove TC and Castle from faster building because of overlapping with Sicilians, but buff other buildings to 50%? I know it will be a big issue for DM settings. And nowadays, DM are not always mirror.
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It is like Franks and Mayans on EVERY SINGLE Arabia game (LOL). Frustrating sure, but is were the Spanish can shine
sounds like a big nerf to me, as the TC and Castle are the most important buildings impacted by the bonus as is, so removing those from the bonus completely just leaves them even worse. otehr that that it also pushes spanish back towards trushing.
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Well the thing is, Spanish are bad on arabia, ok on water, good on arena, but completely overpowered for any nomad game.
Spanish need a buff for open maps but at the same time they need a nerf for nomad.
Like I said before, nerf conq melee armor to 1 and remove the building bonus for the first TC on nomad games, then give them Berry Bushes containing 50% more food. And other thing, extend the blacksmith bonus to university, they might lack crossbow but that can make the cavalry archer play from them more viable.
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I already for a long time proposed to change spanish faster building bonus to 40 %, but only 20 % for TCs and Castles.
This would nerf them on Nomad but make them stronger on almost all other “open” maps. On mmost closed maps they should stay basically the same.
It is funny, because at higher level some players (eg Tatoh) actually prefer Malians over Spanish on nomad. There have been a number of things said in this thread that are simply not true. The vill building advantage starting TC is never 2 vills. More realistic is 0.5-1.2 depending on where the vills spawn. And remember that Persian and Malian get insta fish ship, so the Persian and Malian start is usually stronger.
I think part of the issue is that at lower levels people want to just go to fast castle themselves in order to compete. But if you are against a castle drop civ then it is often the best strategy to do some fuedal aggression. The build order for fast castle castle drop on Nomad is pretty tight, 2 archers on the stone, gold or woodline is all that is needed to mess it up. And you often see higher level players going for fuedal scouts. This is again something lacking at lower levels. Force the opponent to make a dumb castle at home! If the Spanish player loses their fish, and has to build castle at home, then the impact of the 2 conqs they can produce will be minimal.
And also - it has been said before, but there are many counters to conqs. Monks, Skirms, Camel, many UU.
Overall I think it is more a refusal of people to use the correct strategy/units that is the issue.
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It isn’t that much a player problem, at even high level Spanish dominate nomad because there isn’t any other civ able to compete withe the lead that spanish can get, and conqs here are an absolute unit, 5 of them can already do too much damage and nomad makes mobility soo good.
Spanish dock is also built faster.
The thing with this type of arguments is that it has no bases on real data.
If you check the statistics, Spanish on Nomad have consistent +64% win rate across the board with the highest play rate by far.
It can’t be a coincidence since it has been like this for years. The meta has already been perfected.
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Franks isn’t meta anymore, too many bad matchups, A tier at best these days. Loses to Gurjaras, Hindustanis, uphill matchup vs all the CA + Camel civs also (Berbers, Mongols, Tatars…).
Mayans idk, to me it looks like Archer line took too big of a hit Archers aren’t that scary anymore because I’d say people learned to wall better and your window to do damage got sort of deleted (no more semi FC Crossbow for example that build is unusable). In Imp things are looking grim also, affording all 3 upgrades while also having 40+ Crossbows and a Castle (for Trebs) isn’t very easy and Castle Age Knights can fight Arbalest well as long as the fight isn’t under the Castle and the Knight player has eco lead.
I would say Imp nerf needs to be reverted and wasn’t needed.
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Well is true, but let me say why the counters often aren’t too effective
Monks: Conqs have mobility so they can avoid be converted, Monks also are just wayy to fragile and slow, they die in 2 shots and then you need sanctity to be 3 at least (Aztecs and Bengali monks do a bit better), then again if 5 conqs are running in your base Spanish player can just chose to target the gold miners (5 shots can kill a loomed villaer), then what Monks you can do?
Skirms: is true that skirms are now more effective than before vs conqs (before DE they were only doing 5 damage to conqs, after DE is 7 damage), but then, so if you are raided by conqs and then you need skirms, your weaker food eco will just suffer because teching into skirms requieres lots of food, and the you also need ballistics to catch them while moving, then you also need 4 technologies (fletching + bodkin and the armor upgrades) to make them decent vs conqs, even then Conqs kill skirms in 4 hits (and if you lack the armor upgrades that are 3 shots!).
Camels are faster and can do damage yes, but at the same time 5 Conqs can do the work surprisingly so well vs low camel numbers, also see this:
Bad news, not many UUs work because how fast conqs kill those, Only good UU vs them is Camel Archer and also Genitours.
It’s acceptable, since we have already delayed the extra villagers of Mayans and Chinese.
Maybe we can make all civs cannot enable their all bonuses until the first TC is built.
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Sadly, if these kind of threads keep coming Spanish will be nerf (at least 1 TC); I’m guessing you want all civs don’t have any bonus in Dark Age
You are winning just one vill ahead with Spanish; Mayans and Chinese have the same issue. What if you remove some stone from Spanish and keep the bonus?
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Just remove nomad from ranked games because Nomad was designed for fun instead of competition. It is not a standard map with fixed locations and equal resources, The civ bonus are based on standard maps only, Nomad was not taken into consideration, otherwise you can’t explain why they nerfed Chinese and Mayan villagers but left Persian, Lithuanian and Spanish alone
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Bad news, not many UUs work because how fast conqs kill those, Only good UU vs them is Camel Archer and also Genitours.
Not true. Other UUs that do well include Plumes, War Wagons, Chu ko nu, Organ Guns, Magudai. And they are all units that cost Wood/Gold rather than Food/Gold. So with 2+ castle production it is much easier to mass than with Conqs, where you need really good eco to support it. In low number Conqs are still stronger, its just a question of massing and waiting for the right fights. Buy time with stone walls, monks etc.