Celts: Stronghold tech replacement

HI! so Celts have what is considered one of the worst UT in the game in stronghold and at the same time, i see them as one trick pony in their military since they lack upgrades for both archers and cav, and have average infantry in late game (Just 5% movement speed on 0.9 base speed unit is not going to change much) and only basically strong onagers going for them, which are not the smoothest unit to use

woad raiders are good, but they cost 90 res which is not cheap for infantry compared to champions after squire or Obuch, and imho are not really suited to be “raiders” with just 1 PA and no bonus vs buildings over average infantry UU

so i was thinking about changing Stronghold into something that could really make woads closer to a power unit, like berserkergang for Zerks, but tailored towards making them real raiders

Pillagers: Woad Raiders get +1 PA and + X (2?) bonus vs buildings

on a side note, infantry speed buff could be changed into 10% bonus in feudal, and addition of squire to the tech tree, adjusting woads speed so that it would remain roughly the same as now after full upgrades, to make champion really speedy (10% more than average)



I agree with Stronghold is an underwhelm UT, but I don’t like UTs that buff stats of UU (bearded axe, Yeomen, berserkergang, mahout, etc) that could be changed by Elite upgrade…

In similar line of actual Stronghold, i think it could be changed to give Castles +25% attack speed and +5 Castle armor class and +2 Standard Building armor class.

Another idea is giving some buff or feature to Knight line. Maybe a Food discount, or some % of res returned when a knight dies.

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What actual difference does this make?

OMFG no. Why does everyone revert to knight buffs or trying to add knights to the tech tree?

I don’t think it’s a bad idea, but agree with Martin, can add this to the elite upgrade.

Buffing stronghold might be fine

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Just dropped raw ideas, not really in love with them. Said this:

+5 Castle armor would be very niche, only makes a difference when castle is attacked by Tarkans (whose have +10 vs Castle Armor class).
+2 Standard Building (which is different than Building Armor class) has really impact when castle is attacked by infantry. Lets say it negates Arson effect.

Chill… just an idea. I really don’t like much to be honest. but maybe could give Celts an option for TGs. Don’t really know if they need it, anyway…

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stealing herdables makes them really good at laming
faster moving infantry gives them a above average maa rush
celts have great eco because of +15% lumberjack speed
the faster attacking and creating siege is amazing
woad raiders are a decent unique unit

they fall off in imp, but that’s what they are meant to. celts are at the very beginning of the timeline of aoe2 (arguably too early)

they don’t need any changes

I proposed a UT because to my understanding woad raiders are not really a bad unit to need a buff atm, but i admit i do not play celts that much to know a lot about them. I would gladly give this buff for free for then on elite, i just tought It could have bene an overbuff and would have bene badly received on the forum lol

If woads elite can be buffed in this way, then stronghold can be buffed, but i think celts are an aggressive civ and a defensive tech does not really suite them, especially since they lack important upgrades for Castle anyway like bracer

I would completely remove it and make something cool for infantry, maybe related to their iconic spear formation, and a unique buff for spearmen

If we want to keep the stronghold we have now, i think buffing It to 33% instead of 25 is the bare minimum, but would still be useless imho

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Lots of civs fall of in imp as they are supposed to, because they have some of the strongest eco in the game (aztects and Vikings are the most prominent examples), celts are nowhere near that

Also after the MAA, their infantry is pretty average, and not even the fastest since lithuanians Spears are faster than celts after squires

The timeline argument means nothing to be honest, and they are also completely in the timeline since they are based on scots and Just woad raiders are inaccurate but who cares, we have chiese without gunpowder already.

As i’ve said, siege is the only thing going for them, and both woad raiders and UT could use help

Of course there are other civs who are worse and need help as well, but that’s fare beyond the point


I would like to see +10 G for each enemy villager killed (by the woads).
This would give Celts a very unique gameplay. Especially in the lategame where their bad cavalry kind of hurts them. With raiding Woads, they would have a unique tool comparable to the other civs Hussars.

celts have pretty good eco because of the wood gathering bonus.

in all elos celts have >50% winrate, so why buff them?

Stronghold can be a civ bonus. In return Stronghold can be changed to garrisoned infantry fire arrows. Teutons Crenellations cost can be reduced and gives only extra range to Castle.

Would need to start from castle age

And make the UT pretty cheap? Like 200/200 even that might be too expensive for something that only allows infantry to add arrows

You don’t like reading do you? The only reason Celts have that WR is Hoang like strats on open maps, the same way Incan trushing held up their WR

Just let add Stronghold +1 Range in addition to the faster firing and it would be an okay-ish tech. It could then be used in castle age for pushes that are a bit stronger than usual and in Imp it would compensate for lacking bracer.

Yes, there is then some overlap with the Korean and Teuton UTs, but I think it’s a price that can be paid.

“Celts have a balanced WR because people know how to play to the civ’s advantages”, that’s exactly the point. Celts have a somewhat unique playstyle, this is a good thing


What is the problem of a “useless UT” on a rather well balanced civ ?

Celts have good 1v1 in general, are great in closed team games, and subpaar in open/water team games.

As a pocket civ, they are subpaar but still fine due to good eco for early game to compensate the lack of bloodlines, and late game they can use their subpaar paladins, it is better off than many civs such as koreans, britons, vikings, japanese, malays, bohemians, ethiopians, aztecs, incas.

As a flank civ, they have better early game than most civs thanks to stronger eco, but they need to transit to their +25% attack speed +40% hp FU skorpions. And they are also better off than a few civs like burmese and slavs, plus goths, franks, teutons, malians if you consider their scorpions better than hand canoners. And the other civs without arbalesters with bracers mus also transit to heavy cav archers.

Do you think the celts casyle age UT is wirse than the ones fron mongols, persians, portuguese, incas, chinese ? Woulf ot feel better to buff the UT from 25% to 50% or so ?

I don’t think it will strong in Feudal Trush battle as firing multiple arrows reduces the ROF. But I agree.

It is a strong strategy. Even after 2.5-3 Years, it is the only reason Honag and Celts are so strong in ladder. If we buff Celts, the Hoang strategy needs a nerf.

So to you playing a civ the same way 100% of times to be competitive, in a way that is super all-in and totally Crazy eco management is a good thing?

I disagree

I’m completely fine with anithing that makes a civ more well rounded and less one trick-pony


playing a civ to its win condition, yeah I think that’s normal. Celts’ win condition will vary depending on the civ matchup: sometimes it’s castle-all in, sometimes it’s woad raiders, sometimes it’s halb-siege

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Celts are not so strong to not deserve a proper UT. They are not as strong as mongols or huns for example, in comparison to Nomads or Heresy, that could easily be changed with something more interesting as well tbh

Having a interesting tech and a strong tech are two foundamentally different things. Like new saracen UT, it’s not strong, but it’s more interesting than the old Monk tech.

Also no one ever wins by woad raiders alone, they are not a strong infantry UU. They are merely a faster champion with much higher cost, which Is good, but they are not a power unit, and they arguably are not raiders having poor Arrow resistance and same bonus vs Building as anyone.

My tech, +1 PA and +X(2?) Bonus vs buildings is not going to make woads OP by any means, as many have sayd It could be something tied to the elite upgrade even since it is super expensive at 1800 res, but for sure would be more interesting that asteonghold that not only Is weak but serve nothing to the celts playstile


woads also have more HP. low speed is the champion’s main weakness, so addressing that is amazing