Changing Madrasah

This title goes to Japanese which has 33% faster firing halbs fully upgraded. Goth can spam a lot but thats about it. When ur unit dies fast it doesn’t matter how cheap they are, because u will lose ground overtime.

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I don’t know about this, I don’t think I’ve ever seen goths lose ground before they run out of resources, they can stay pop capped with 3 barracks even if they’re losing units in droves

Monks were better in AoE I but it is impossible to manage a large economy in that game especially since the AI sends units in every direction and pressures your town from all sides even on Easy difficulty. And I am pretty sure there isn’t a tech similar to theocracy in the original.

Well, you don’t really want to go infantry with magyars so it’s understandable…you still have a good chance to win before getting to the late game, but it gets tough if you let goth advance to the later stages of the game. Still, I am getting a bit too much off topic here…

But then Goths units still die faster. By the late imp the one who pushes the line forward are those who has lower unit turnover. When one enemy unit manages to kill 3 of yours, thats the sign that your units are not great, even with op spam.

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I don’t know where Goths come this topic from but Magyars good counter to Goths. Scout Rush or Fast Castle boom. Heavy Cavalry Archers does 1 damage but Magyar one does 2 to Huskarls. Don’t care your Hussars, make 80-100 farmers. Cavalry Archers can take Infantry easily except Huskarls. After winning battles or taking Goths attention to elsewhere you can raid with Hussars (spreading them enjoyable). You can do this with Saracens but they have generic Cavalry Archers and generic Hussars so not that enjoyable.

About Madrasah, I don’t think civilian techs are good (for example paper money). A balanced military buff can be good. Saracens has good military so I think something defensive can be good like Castles does more damage against Siege units (Old Persian Boiling Oil basically but better version without stone cost).

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Magyars have discounted Hussars and have Paladin and the best Cav Archers, so they have good enough options against Goths.

They also have a Trash UU, which ups it’s power level by a lot.

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Good luck against a flood of halbs and huskarls…

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That’s why I said LATE game goths

I said you can have 80-100 farmers and spam Hussars. This can’t be done in early game. Maybe scout rush makes confusion there but whole paragraph about fast castle boom and which units to create.

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Goth Flood is overrated, Huskarls will always go in front of Halbs, and get slaughtered by FU Hussars, and then the Cav Archers will pick the Halbs apart.

Goth Flood is also very resource inneficient. I play Goths and against Goths a lot, I know the civ inside out.

Attack them early with 5 Archers and you cripple them in Feudal, and they have no comeback mechanics.

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I always considered Goths to be a terrible civ because of their tech tree and they are the only AoK civ I haven’t played to this day and I got the game months ago.

I am specifically referring to late game goths here and no, you are supposed to keep the barracks pumping out units and keep them mixed, so hussars will just get destroyed by halbs.

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In order to keep the Monk-themed UT, how about this, upon a successful conversion, you gain X amount of Gold (including those killed by Heresy). It would be useful(but not necessary) in the Castle Age but eventually falloff as the game goes by. X = either a fixed amount or in proportion to what the unit itself cost (but not to the point it returns the lot?)

Or a much simpler idea, your first Monastery contains/acts like a Relic. Destroying it will ‘remove’ this Relic until you rebuild, multiple will not count but it would encourage a Saracen player to build monasteries.

Just a thought.

Does not work, the discount is staggered precisely so you cannot do this, and you will lose badly to Archers in Feudal.

As I said, LATE game!

Lategame Goths get demolish by Hussar + Skirmisher, even Turk Skirmishers.

There was a famous game, when Goths were actually buffed, that Viper was losing, as Goths, to Turk Skirm spam, and Huskarls were not cost-effective enough to stop it, because they got sniped by Hussars very bad.

When one side is losing Gold units, and the other is not, in LATEGAME, the side that is losing Gold will lose the match.

I don’t disagree that they are garbage units, but if you’re insisting that quality units are always better it does not add up with the win rates, they might be a bit outdated but I don’t think anything massive has changed that would upset this with Japanese to Goths in the last couple of months

If it is late imp with plenty of gold left you’re 100% right there are a lot of things that will outperform goths and push them back, but if they managed to survive until that point and still be in a good position(not crippled) they aren’t extremely weak, their win rate climbs to over 62% once 40 minutes is reached at 1650+, and it’s worse at 51% in 1250-1650 but that’s still decent (they have lower win rates before reaching this point but you were speaking of late imperial)

By contrast Japanese win rates are <51% at all elo levels and drop sharply in long matches at 1650+, at 40 minutes they have a 38% win rate to goth 62% - 1250-1650 elo they are better than goths(if the game does not reach 40 minutes), at all other levels they are worse across the board, and I would assume that 1650 players know how to counter goths just as well as those at lower ratings

This would imply that Goths are generally above average in late imp and far better than Japanese in most matchups despite higher halberdier damage and armor

If there is no gold left and the game drags out into a complete trash war it gets even more lopsided towards Goths, Malay might still be doing ok or Persian trash archers but skirmishers or halberdiers aren’t ever going to achieve a good enough ktd ratio to push the line back if the goth player continues to add more barracks like you will be trying to add more military buildings to compensate for the production speed bonus, nothing you are going to make at this point is going to get a 3/1 kill ratio in reasonable conditions as most civs

They can obviously still lose but they are not weaker, if they lose at this point it is because the player using them makes an error and the other player is able to take advantage of it

What on earth has happened to my beautiful Madrasah thread? 11


They were debating about Goth’s power after my suggestion to give saracen camels SMALL bonus damage against infantry in a UT.
The thing is :

  • I was never asking for a +999 damage,
  • Pikes will remain a very good counter,
  • Camels are not great against infantry, and won’t become outstanding after a SMALL bonus.
  • It will remain a very situational bonus, that can be balanced by it’s cost.

So yes, the debate around that is off-topic, since the talk is about hussar + arbalest and not camels.
Who would do camels against a Goth in 1v1 anyway… ?
Can someone suggest a better Saracen Castle UT rework instead ?