the extras should be left to mod. the dharma expansion is an excellent mod for this
So⊠what if samurai took half damage from UU as well?
All damage down to the bonus damages vs infantry and the Leitis style ignore armor.
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It will make it very complicated to describe the unit.
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I donât think they need to lose infantry samurai. I do think their unique techs are very situational though. I would much rather see a unique tech similar to Anarchy so that you can mass samurai from barracks.
Is it really so complicated to add a line that reads:
Takes half damage from unique units?
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I think it should align with Bengalis and Sicilians
Land military units (except siege weapons) receive 33% less bonus damage
Elephant units receive 25% less bonus damage and are more resistant to conversion
So that it would be receive 50% less damage from unique units
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I think you canât do this with the engine. You can reduce the damage received based in the armor classes that taker unit have, not the attacker.
Yes there are actually two in-game case that add the 0.5 multiplier to the after armor damage, which are Hussite Wagon and missed arrow
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Obviously something infantry are missing is speed. Cav is used a lot because of it, ranged can kite the infantry to death.
How about giving Samurai a speed up ability, the longer they are moving the faster they get until they reach a max speed (walking then running). Progressively getting faster until they stop/hit the enemy. Doesnât have to be an uber speed up, but something that gets them into combat a bit faster (to catch up with some ranged or be used to get into eco etc). Could even see some patrol usage to âspeed upâ.
Giving it a different type of timing usage in more skilled plays, still being rather easy to use for the lower elo players. Would also differentiate the unit from a lot of the other ones.
Just throwing out an idea.
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If the mounted samurai ever gets added as a second UU, I would hope it has a different name so they donât just have a UU called âXâ and one called âMounted Xâ lol
I have an alternative suggestion that I would like to propose when it comes to potentially adding the [Mounted Samurai] as a second unique unit for the Japanese. Instead of renaming it into something like the âNaginata Riderâ why not rename this unit into the âOnna-mushaâ and change the unit model where a female warrior will ride on the horse?
Some of you may be reluctant of this idea, at least on first impression, but Japan does actually have a long history where they had female warriors that participated in battle, which were called the âOnna-mushaâ and fought alongside Samurai men. The most popular weapon-of-choice by the Onna-musha was the Naginata which is the weapon that the Japanese warrior is armed with in the image that is displayed in the original post.
If I remember correctly the Naginata is supposed to be a feminine weapon.
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I like this idea - it makes the unit much more distinctive than just a mounted version of another unit. Plus the Japanese Knight and Cavalry Archer lines already notionally represent mounted samurai. (Added bonus: it would annoy people who automatically assume that female warriors are ahistorical.)
Genuine question: were naginata actually used by cavalry? I know there are lots of depictions of cavalry using them, but they all seem to come from the mid 18th century or later. At that point, Iâd guess naginata hadnât been used at all for about 150 years. Is there any contemporary evidence?
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I did a quick internet search and I happened to find a source that mentions about a type of military equestrianism that was called âBajutsuâ (Bajutsu | Historica Wiki | Fandom) which in contrast to âYabusameâ, mounted archery, focused far more on melee combat than the use of the bow.
Even if this source doesnât say a lot about the use of the Naginata on horseback, it apparently claims that out the variety of weapons used in close combat by the mounted samurai, the main two melee weapons used throughout the Heian period (794-1185 CE) and Kamakura period (1192-1333 CE) including the early period of Muromachi (1336-1573 CE) was both the Itachi and the Naginata.
If someone else could help with providing more information about the use of the Naginata on horseback I would greatly appreciate it, because so far I havenât found any comprehensive sources about this.
(Added bonus: it would annoy people who automatically assume that female warriors are ahistorical.)
Heh, I like your style of sassiness. If there are players that are annoyed with having female warriors in the game, then how did some people react when the [Gbeto] unit was added to the game with the TAK (The African Kingdoms) expansion for example?
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I donât think Iâve actually come across AoE2 players like that, to be honest. I think the only thing like that Iâve seen on the AoE forums was about Joan of Arc fighting rather than being a standard bearer in AoE4. Iâve seen worse in the context of other games, though.
Gbeto arenât especially historically accurate though, as far as I can tellâŠ
Yeah, theyâre based on Dahomey warriors from the 1800s (not the middle ages), which were Fon and not Malian
And who also used muskets, right? Seems weird to me that they came up with it at all, but I donât mind it somehow.
âOnna (ć„ł/ăăăȘ)â literally means âwomanâ.
âMusha (æŠè
/ăăă)â literally means âwarriorâ.
It just means female combatant.
I do not deny the participation and contribution of women in the history of war in Japan, but they are more like noblewomen voluntarily leading her maids in arms to assist the men of their families in the war, rather than a regular military organization like Gbeto.
In fact, the naginata has long been usually used as a tool for fighting on foot and for dismounting cavalry, rather than as a weapon for cavalry charges.
In the Middle Ages of Japan, ####### ######## seemed to seldom charge. They were usually more inclined to the challenge of traditional mounted archery with the yumi, which was not only a means of defeating the enemy, but also a ritual of battle. At this time, the number of people involved in the war was not large, compared to the rest of the world.
Naturally, as time goes by, the scale of war becomes larger and larger, and therefore more and more dependent on forces other than the cavalry. In the late Heian period (roughly equivalent to the 12th century), fight on foot had become more frequent, so the naginata used by foot fighters became the main weapon together with the yumi. It was also at this time that the earliest written records about naginata were left.
During the Mongol invasions in the 13th century, the armies of Chinese and Koreans taught the Japanese, who had long been isolated from the world, a lesson in the formation of pike infantry. The Japanese realized the advantages of infantry with polearms in large-scale combat.
In the Nanboku-chĆ period (roughly equivalent to the 14th century), when the number of participants in the war increased and group combat on foot replaced mounted archery as the mainstream, the naginata finally became the most common weapon.
However, from the Ćnin War (1467), Japan entered the Sengoku period, and everything was about to change rapidly.
In addition to the introduction of Western gunpowder, religion, and technology, the values of Japanese society changed, and the people of the territory were conscripted in large numbers as low-level infantry â the ashigaru. The type of warfare changed from fighting between nobles to larger wars involving large numbers of people led by lords. The ####### ######## began to emphasize the melee charge and abandoned traditional archery, but the victory was more of infantry battles, so samurais also actively participated in the melee on foot.
At this time, whether on horseback or on foot, the mainstream weapon is already yari. The use of the teppo made the naginata no longer be valued on the battlefield, while the yari eventually became more popular than the yumi as a weapon for the samurai, and foot troops (ashigaru) followed suit and used them extensively. The cavalry used the yari to charge, just as the cavalry used lances in the rest of the world. The infantry formed formations using yari, yumi and teppo, just as the rest of the world used pikes, crossbows and muskets.
The censored words are âM O U N T E D S A M U R A I Sâă
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I love samurai just as they are, but I read the comments & I had never expected them to be considered too nerfed. Probably little higher anti-archer armor?
I agree completely that the Samurai should be revised, most likely by turning it into a cavalry unit.
Itâs worth looking at what Petersen said about this a few decades back. In Ask Sandy XV, he openly acknowledges what folks have already been pointing out in this thread: âSpecifically, we have noted that the mighty samurai is not especially useful in his main task of UU-killing.â He goes on to note that as a result, the team has âupped his movement speed a tadâ and âincreased his anti-UU damageâ, i.e. they doubled down on the original design. This didnât really work then â thatâs why weâre having this conversation in the first place â and I donât think that tripling down now would be the answer, either.
Elsewhere Petersen says that originally, the Samurai was supposed to be able to toggle between ranged and mĂȘlĂ©e attacks (this possibility has already been mentioned at least once above, as far as I could see). Obviously such a change has been somewhat preempted by the introduction of the Ratha, but I think thereâs still room for such a unit. The Ratha has 10 mĂȘlĂ©e, 5 ranged attack â the revised Samurai could have, say, 9 and 6, respectively, augmenting its role as a cav archer. And/or, given that the naginata has been mentioned above, the Samuraiâs mĂȘlĂ©e attack could have range 1 like a Steppe Lancer. Lower HP, the retention of the Samuraiâs current 1/1 base armor, a slightly higher speed (1.35, same as a Knight) could also set it apart. And to distinguish it more from other cav archers, it could cost food and gold instead of wood and gold, which would synergize nicely with the Japanese fishing bonus. (This largely excerpted from another post I made.)
A revised Samurai could also have a weakness against gunpowder units. In terms of the gameâs continuing development, this would be a neat little homage to the unitâs former, unmounted version, and would also be another interesting mechanic cutting across usual counter- and counter-counter-lines (e.g. the Ghulam being strong against archers) since gunpowder is usually thought of as anti-infantry. It would also constitute a fitting nod to Kurosawaâs Seven Samurai, Yojimbo etc., where itâs usually gunpowder weaponry that overpowers the samurai protagonists (or at least seriously endangers them).
Thatâs just my two cents, though â plenty of other variations are possible, and I agree with a lot of whatâs been said already (e.g. that thereâs some awkwardness here since Japanese knights and especially cav archers presumably already represent samurai â onna-musha and naginata rider are both very cool ideas). I donât see much potential for modest revisions, though â the Samurai shouldnât deal anti-UU bonus damage and it shouldnât be an infantry unit, either. A proper overhaul is in order.
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Thanks a lot for your insight @UpmostRook9474 concerning the use of the Naginata. If the Onna-musha were not a military organisation or regiment in Japan, then it is a pretty valid reason as for why it wouldnât make any sense if they were to be a trainable unit. However, that doesnât stop them from becoming a scenario editor unit or a unit that could show up in a campaign for the Japanese.
Maybe the [Mounted Samurai], which would serve as a second unique unit for the Japanese, could then instead be renamed to the âYari Horsemanâ or something like that and have its unit model changed where it will be armed with a Yari polearm.
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Agree. If we want to better reflect medieval Japan, then the editor should have the SĆhei and Onna Musha for the future Japanese campaign. The SĆhei can heal friendly units as it is a monk, and the Onna Musha can also have the healing ability, reflecting her motivation to step into the field to assis the men of her family.
I think both the units should be infantry with the naginata. War horses, katana and yumi are the status symbols of the samurai and tools that must be mastered, especially the latter two. Monks usually cannot and do not need to use these tools, because their original intention of using force was to defend monasteries and nearby villages/estates/manors rather than to gain warrior status and conquer territories (although their force were so powerful that they became a political power distinct from royalty and samurai clans). And, women also have difficulty accessing, learning, and using these tools unless they are blood relatives of the samurai. Once monks and women had to fight, the naginata was their usual choice as it was a general infantry weapon. This is one of the reasons why the naginata became the representative weapon of monks and women in later generations.
Similar to Onna Musha, the Shield-maiden can also be an editor unit.
While Iâm not against simply naming it âMounted Samuraiâ, my suggestion for naming it is âKiba Musha (éšéŠŹæŠè /ăă°ăăă)â or âKibatai (éšéŠŹé/ăă°ăă)â, which literally means âmounted warrior / cavalrymanâ and âmounted warrior troop / cavalry troopâ respectively. These terms are standard, common usage in Japanese, such like Takeda Kibatai. It is also my suggestion for the new name of the Naginata rider in AoE3. I also suggested that it better switch to a yari instead of a naginata too. The naginata is no longer considered standard military equipment in the AoE3 timeline.
Another decent term to distinct the unique cavalry unit to common stable units is âAkazonae (蔀ćă/ăăăăȘă)â, which literally means âred armsâ. They were the elite troop formation of the samurais, brave and powerful in red armor and flags. As cavalry, they can charge fearlessly. To be one of them is the highest honor of a samurai. But this is a relatively specific term, as only a few samurai clans in the Sengoku period had such an organization.
Although I prefer the archer mode of Samurai with the yumi rather than the introduction of new unique cavalry units for the Japanese in AoE2.
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