Heavy scorpion is an upgrade that is rarely worth researching it cost 1000F 1,100W and provides +10HP +4 DMG +2 vs buildings and elephants, +1 against rams, And a shorter frame delay. While this is nothing to scoff at, I still argue that Heavy Scorpion are weaker in imp than normal scorpions in castle age. In castle age scorpions’ main purpose is countering Crossbow which they excel at since they can 40 hits. in Imperial age FU arbs deal 3 damage and can now outrange Heavy scorpions. While they are still an effective counter to Arbalest and also Infantry and to a lesser Elephants, I find Heavy Scorpion Difficult to justify outside of Khmer and Blackforest
9 Likes
Some days ago at Memb’s twitch channel there was a brief discussion about the Heavy Scorpion upgrade. I suggested to make Heavy Scorpions be able to cut like Ballista Elephants. Memb really liked the idea and thinks that this change could make people use them more. He said he could ask for it in the Balance Discord (I have no confirmation if he really did). What do you think about this?
7 Likes
Agreed the lack of range hurts scorpions in Imperial, and Khmer’s +1 range make them a much more viable unit. Why not just give the Heavy Scorpion upgrade +1 to range?
19 Likes
What purpose would it serve?
Scorpions should be used to counter archers and slow infantry, not to cut trees.
I’d rather have +1 range +1 pierce armor for heavy scorpion, and it needs imho a bit tinier collision size, they’re too clunky.
After all Mangonel upgrades get pierce armor (+1 onager, +2 siege onager) and more range, and while Heavy Scorpion already has the same PA as Onagers, a single Onager could flatten a group of archers while a single Heavy scorpion (or even 2, for equal resources) just dies to them.
Also heavy scorpions without siege engineers can’t even match archers range in imperial age, which is very bad imho.
8 Likes
I find them too slow and die too easily. So I’m happy to keep heavy upgrade the same cost if it gives a speed and more of an HP buff. Damage output and range is fine as it is imo.
Idk what you can give to scorpions to make them better, but not op. The issue with their viability is that they die really badly to onagers and bombard cannons, so if you add pierce armor or hp or attack or whatever, as long as those units still massacre scorpions nothing really changes.
If you do make them good against other siege, then there would be nothing in the game anymore that can counter halb+scorpion (especially from celts/khmer/ethiopians/chinese) making the combo even stronger than the already borderline broken halb+siege onager while being way cheaper.
2 Likes
Maybe an attack bonus vs. buildings
If a scorpion bolt hits house that sucks but will have a minimal effect on its structural integrity I do support giving Scorpions bonus damage agianst Elephants, Ships, Siege (especially rams) but that’s an argument for another day.
I agree, Heavy Scorp should get buffed, thought I wouldn’t touch the price, high price requires high investment, and high investment requires a bold decision making, and that’s what we want in a strategy game.
I’d just adjust the stats, as people said here before, extra range, or perhaps better attack speed- from 3.6 to 2.5.
2 Likes
What do you mean lol, heavy scorp costs almost twice as much as Onager and it provides 33% damage (not that significant because most is ignored by armor anyway) and +10HP, compared to +1 range, +25% damage, +25% blast radius, +1 pierce armor, +10HP, and the strategic ability to cut down trees.
4 Likes
I’m not saying Heavy Scorp is as worthy as Onager.
Just supporting the idea of buffing Heavy Scorps slightly.
Agree HScorp is underwhelming compared to onagers. Onagers kills them way too easily. Gotta either cut the upgrade cost or increase the attack by 1-2
1 Like
I’d rather have more range and pierce armor first. Range in particular, 7 is too low, civs without siege engineers can’t even match archers range in imperial age, this is very bad. Onagers have a base of 8 at least.
The problem imho is not the attack, it would never defeat mangonels and onagers.
1 Like
if khmer got 8+2 range, would be too OP.
So the range factor cant be changed. Just add SE to more civs.
“Khmer with 10 range scorps would be OP but Chinese and Turks with siege engineers would be fiiiiiine right?”
4 Likes
Remove team bonus and replace it then. Give them something like 20-30% faster scorpions as team bonus.
Scorpions are awfully slow and clunky.
1 Like
Imo scorps should be made more destinct. one idea would be to reduce the pierce armor but buff rof and give them some bonus damage vs cavalry.
Also a serious buff in movement speed could be useful
Currently scorps and mangos have too much “overlap” in their utility. Don’t say they are the same, but they have comparable strengths and weaknesses. And as mangos counter scorps it’s just natural scorps have quite bad of a state in the community.
I thought one of the reasons why Scorpions are much weaker is because they also don’t do any friendly fire, Mangonels do.
I’d imagine having faster Scorpions (or at least, Heavy Scorpions even if the name would suggest otherwise) would be a better change, as they’re super clunky to use at the moment, and you’d think a simpler siege weapon would be easier to push around (compared to Onagers/Rams/trebs at least).
Which should make scorps easier to use for lower level players. Yet we see the opposite: high level players use scorps way more often than mid or low elo.
I agree heavy scorpion should beat archers even without siege engineer. Being outrange by arbalest is too bad for scorpion. Even with +1 range, onager can still counter scorpion effectively so +1 range is fine.