'Chieftains of the New World' A DLC concept

[Eldee]

So, next up we are moving to yet another region people want to see more of DLC-wise, the Americas. When it comes to the Americas, there is a wealth of civs to choose from and I’ve seen plenty of names pitched, but for this particular DLC I have decided to just keep the focus on Central America (perhaps North and South America can both have their own DLCs down the line). With that in mind, the two most obvious choices for civs are the Purepechas and Zapotecs. Plus, naturally, a Mayans campaign is featured too. Obvs. Admittedly my knowledge of precolonial American history is something of a blind spot, so I will admit a lot of the following ideas have been pieced together from elsewhere.

MAYANS (Campaign)

Because there isn’t a great deal of recorded history surrounding the Mayans, thinking up an idea for a campaign centred around a single protagonist isn’t easy. But Hunac Ceel who was a general that conquered Chichen Itza and founded the Cocom dynasty would be a suitable choice, if not a likely mirror matched campaign.

PUREPECHAS

Crush rival empires to forge a great dynasty of your own. Seek dominance over Mesoamerica, defend your empire from European invaders, and reward Cuitzeo, the god of war, with your triumphs

First up, we move to Mexico, where we see the addition of the Purepechas. The Purepechas were renowned for going toe-to-toe with the Aztecs for a lot of their history, however, the perhaps legendary tale of Princess Erendira and her revolt against the Spanish would make a great AoE II campaign. They are a civ that in particular specialises in skirmishers.

Architecture: American

Language: Purepecha

Tech Tree: Arbalest, Cavalry Archer, Hand Cannoneer, Parthian Tactics, Scout Cavalry, Knight, Steppe Lancer, Shipwright, Heavy Demolition Ship, Cannon Galleon, Siege Onager, Heavy Scorpion, Bombard Cannon, Hoardings, Sappers, Heresy, Printing Press, Ilumination, Cavalry Scale Barding, Cavalry Chain Mail, Cavalry Plate Barding, Archer Ring Armor, Heated Shot, Bombard Tower, Guilds, Crop Rotation.

UT: 1. Chimali Shield: Cuitzeo’s Chosen and Eagle Warrior have more pierce armor 2. Cuitzeo’s Spirit: If a unit is being converted by enemy monks it will get speed and damage boost

UU: Cuitzeo’s Chosen: Faster, cheaper but weaker version of skirmisher

Wonder: Tzintzuntzan Yacata

Bonuses

• Mill, Lumber Camp and Mining Camp technologies’ food cost replaced by wood cost (20% less total resources).
• Skirmishers have +1 attack in the Feudal Age; +2 in the Castle Age; +3 in the Imperial Age.
• Mills, Lumber Camps and Mining Camps can be garrisoned (10) by villagers.
• Free Masonry and Architecture.
• Team Bonus: Outposts 25% more HP.

ZAPOTECS

Out of the Oaxcan valley, lead your civilization to outlast all the great empires around you. Pummel at your enemies with your impressive siege power

What?! A fourth Mexican civ?! Well Italy has three, India has four, and going by my previous DLC idea, China has a few now, so there’s something about countries renowned for their delicious cuisine (Byzantines and Japanese split when?). Anyway, I digress. The Zapotecs who were the other other civilisation in Medieval era Mesoamerica are a siege civ, my choice for their campaign would be on Cosijoeza, who waged war against the Aztecs and went undefeated. My reasoning for this choice would be to show from another perspective just how ruthless the Aztecs were which we didn’t get with the tragic story of Montezuma, plus it would be another example of a new campaign where you go up against the heroes of an OG campaign (there was a point when both Cosijoeza and Montezuma were rulers of their respective kingdoms at the same time, so their paths very much could have potentially crossed).

Architecture: American

Language: Ixtlan Zapotec

Tech Tree: Scout Cavalry, Knight, Steppe Lancer, Cavalry Archer, Parthian Tactics, Hand Cannoneer, Arbalest, Bombard Cannon, Cannon Galley, Fast Fire Ship, Horse Armor, Herbal Medicine, Illumination, Theocracy

UT: *1. Warchief: Thunder Warrior gains bonus armor. 2. Cloud People: Villagers cost wood instead of food

UU: Thunder Warrior: Faster but weaker jaguar warrior with damage bonus against melee infantry

Wonder: Monte Alban

Bonuses

• Livestock and berries last 40% longer
• University Technologies half price
• Arrow techs (Smithing, Chemistry, Ballistics and Thumb Ring effect villagers) and they have a base range of 3.
• Scorpions and Mangonel projectiles fire faster.
• Team Bonus: Castles work 20% faster

[Apocalypso4826]

Who are the figures in this banner?

[DynasticPlanet5]

Why only 2 civs? Lets stop encouraging this minimalist release style when the first expansion gave us 5

[Skadidesu]

Half of the bonuses are useless and the other half is overpowered.
You should either think more about the bonuses or leave the details out of the concept.
Not like the developers would ever 1 to 1 copy a civilisation concept posted here anyway.

[TheConqueror753]

Why so judgmental of other people? Does it really matter to you what they do?

[DynasticPlanet5]

The basic gist was the idea that its okay for the devs to release less and less content and charging more for it because people seem to be resigned to accept it.

And yes the reliance on AI art to rise oneself up as an artist is a bad move

[SirWiedreich]

I understand the temptation to (over) use AI generated images really to give anything a little more visual credibility, but I really wish people wouldn’t so much, at least without doing a bit more research. And perhaps these AI tools themselves are rather bad at discerning realistic sources from pop culture or fantasy images. But I’m going to put more thought into the critique of this image than was put into its creation.

The steel weapons are extremely silly of course, as no American civ was known to have discovered ironworking, or to have had access to such items before the arrival of the Spanish and Portuguese. Valid weapons would be obsidian-studded club/swords (macanas or macuahuitls), clubs or maces, axes, spears, knives, bows, and blowguns. The Purépechas in particular could have axes or spears with heads/blades made of copper or bronze.

The individuals themselves don’t look particularly native either, except for the fellow on the left (but why is he wearing fur in a humid jungle?). Although all of them are far too fair-skinned, and full beards were uncommon. The woman looks more Middle Eastern or Caucasian than Mesoamerican, as does her clothing, which has almost nothing in common with what was worn in the region. The mens’ headdresses are also too helmet-y and far too old-world looking apart from the feathers. Overall the image seems to be extremely heavily influenced by the TMR cover art.

The background is silly as well because the four buildings all look to be variously scaled versions of the Temple of Kukulkan at Chichen Itza. There are also no other traces of a city, just a bunch of people camping out and boating in a jungle valley with four random temples.

I know I’m overanalyzing a simple AI image, but I don’t like obviously ridiculous depictions of Mesoamericans in what’s supposed to be at least a semi-historical game. (And please, nobody take this as an invitation to be pedantic over why American civs have certain anachronistic techs in-game). I will say that apart from these obvious flaws, the visual appeal is strong, and if they were to be corrected, this would be a somewhat compelling piece of DLC art. Maybe I’ll look at the civ designs themselves at some point, I just had to get that off my chest.

[Hzdrafxx]

Don’t like the use of AI to create the artworks. It is making fictional images. Pretty sure the clothes those guys and the gal in the middle are wearing are not accurate depiction.

[TwerDefender]

@Eldee

PUREPECHAS

@Eldee

Printing Press

what’s this?

@Eldee

Archer Ring Armor

a skirmisher civ that’s lacking the most important upgrade for skirmishers?

this civ seems to be quite weak. I don’t think there is anything they can do against champion+siege or cavalier+siege

their eagles are still strictly weaker than incan ones. (chimali shield is an inferior version of fabric shields, albeit available an age earlier)
the second UT seems very weak, especially since this civ won’t have any units worth converting in the first place. what strategy would they be playing where the opponent goes ‘this calls for some monks’

@Eldee

UU: Cuitzeo’s Chosen: Faster, cheaper but weaker version of skirmisher

does it cost gold? a weaker version of one of the weakest units in the game doesn’t sound appealing. does the attack bonus apply to them? if so that just makes them a plumed archer with bonus vs archers, no?

the eco bonus isnt bad, but quite weak compared to some other bonuses. In some situations it will even be detrimental. eg when you reach castle age you usually have food to spare, but wood is at a premium. so they would probably have to delay bow saw etc.
the extra attack for skirmishers is a nice idea, but in the end they still attack slower than archers/crossbows so deal less damage
free masonry and architecture is a neat bonus, very similar to byzantines though
team bonus is completely useless

i feel like this civ would struggle to have a game plan. what are you playing towards? what’s your go to unit. if you are just playing towards late imp trash wars, you will probably die to onager/BBC (although i guess monks could help here), but trash wars without light cav sound rough too

@Eldee

ZAPOTECS

@Eldee

UT: *1. Warchief: Thunder Warrior gains bonus armor

UTs that only affect UUs have been going out of fashion.

@Eldee

2. Cloud People: Villagers cost wood instead of food

I think this will be very situational. By the point you reach imp and have a castle to research this you usually have a working food eco anyway

@Eldee

UU: Thunder Warrior: Faster but weaker jaguar warrior with damage bonus against melee infantry

jaguar warriors already have bonus damge against melee infantry? so these would just have more bonus damage? I think jaguar warriors are already a pretty rare unit, and this sounds weaker. but we would need to see stats & price + how much the UT does

@Eldee

Livestock and berries last 40% longer

very similar to tatars

@Eldee

University Technologies half price

nice

@Eldee

Arrow techs (Smithing, Chemistry, Ballistics and Thumb Ring effect villagers) and they have a base range of 3.

this could lead to some very degenerate villager + tower rushing. i don’t think this is a good idea

@Eldee

Scorpions and Mangonel projectiles fire faster.

would have to see this. especially mangonel shots being undodgeable might be OP

@Eldee

Team Bonus: Castles work 20% faster

this is just slightly weaker than kasbah (+25%), but not locked behind a UT. also seems super strong

[Velk413]

Ngl i’d rather see Mississippians as one of the civs along with Purpechas. I’ve been convinced by another that it could work…or maybe have it be a 3 civ DLC and keep both Purpechas and Zapotecs along with Mississippians.

This was the Mississippians thread that got to me. I don’t agree with 100% of the ideas but a lot of it is really solid, even has two campaign ideas involving the civ: Another North American Civ concept

[Skadidesu]

I don’t want to sound harsh but you should think a little longer before posting specific bonuses.
Either make a ruff concept or actually think about the details.
It seems like you just randomly writhe some thing down for the top of your head.

Also small hint, you don’t have to list units like Steppe Lancers because there are only 3 civilisations that have them anyway.
Not being available just not having a stable should be enough, also it’s pretty obvious that they won’t have a stable.

@Eldee

2. Cuitzeo’s Spirit: If a unit is being converted by enemy monks it will get speed and damage boost

Often useless as an Imperial Age technology because most civilisations have Heresy.
Also strange when converted Onagers are faster.

@Eldee

UU: Cuitzeo’s Chosen: Faster, cheaper but weaker version of skirmisher

A weaker version of a Trash Unit makes no sense.

@Eldee

Skirmishers have +1 attack in the Feudal Age; +2 in the Castle Age; +3 in the Imperial Age.

Overpowered. A Elite Skirmisher with the attack damage of a Arbalester is crazy.
Even if the last Armour upgrade is missing they sill have more Pierce Armour then an Arbalester. Even with no armour upgrades they would be better then an Arbalester while costing no Gold.

@Eldee

Team Bonus: Outposts 25% more HP.

Completely useless bonus.
Almost no one builds them. Even +100% HP would be pointless.

@Eldee

2. Cloud People: Villagers cost wood instead of food

When you reach Imperial Age you likely trained a lot of villagers already and you also already have a lot of farms running.
Wood on the other hand can become scarce on some maps.

@Eldee

UU: Thunder Warrior: Faster but weaker jaguar warrior with damage bonus against melee infantry

So basically a slightly different version of an already existing unit. That’s boring.

@Eldee

Livestock and berries last 40% longer

Overpowered.

@Eldee

Scorpions and Mangonel projectiles fire faster.

Increased rate of fire? Or increased projectile speed?

@Eldee

Team Bonus: Castles work 20% faster

Berber UT.

[WindwardHail620]

@Eldee

Skirmishers have +1 attack in the Feudal Age; +2 in the Castle Age; +3 in the Imperial Age.

The Purepecha should not have a Skirmishers bonus. While the Central Mexico civilizations (like the Aztec) barely used the bow and prefer the atlatl. West Mexico (Tarascans) on the other hand used the bow extensively and barely used the atlatl.

It was one of the reasons that they could withstand the Aztec invasion. The Aztec atlatl got a bigger punch than a bow but the Purepecha bows could outrage the Aztec atlatl.

For more information about the Purepecha (Tarascans) I would recommend this podcast

For Maya Campaign inspiration I recommend this video (if the link would not been censored) go to Ancient Americas and look for The History of Maya Cities: Part II

[Igor1138828]

maybe fictional and historically unaccurate but damn they do look good

[PeakHornet46539]

@Eldee

Tzintzuntzan Yacata

We need this pack to include the Chimu and their city of Chan-Chan…

[DynasticPlanet5]

Let’s not encourage the idea that AI “art” is worth praising over careful human hard work

[TwerDefender]

@Skadidesu

@Eldee

2. Cuitzeo’s Spirit: If a unit is being converted by enemy monks it will get speed and damage boost

Often useless as an Imperial Age technology because most civilisations have Heresy.
Also strange when converted Onagers are faster.

oh this is how you interpreted that.

my interpretation was: while being targeted by conversion it’s faster and deals more damage (ie it can kill the monk more easily) and thought it was really niche
your interpretations is: converted units are faster and deal more damage

I think ‘units being converted by enemy monks’ is closer to my interpretation, but yours could be an interesting civ bonus

[StoreyedPlate74]

@Igor1138828

maybe fictional and historically unaccurate but damn they do look good

as long as you don’t look at their hands

[Skadidesu]

@TwerDefender

my interpretation was: while being targeted by conversion it’s faster and deals more damage (ie it can kill the monk more easily) and thought it was really niche

oh I missed the “enemy”.
Still be weaker then Heresy so it should either be a Castle Age UT or a civilisation bonus.

[AllegedSpy95956]

The AI image is not a good representation at all for the civs being proposed here. I think it’s best not to use any image at all until you can get humans to make it. This is what the Zapotecs should look like. Note: their appearance will vary from the classic period Zapotecs centered around Monte Alban (Danibaan) and their later postclassic civilization centered around Zaachila and Guiengola. Classic period Zapotecs:

Postclassic Zapotecs:

The emblem proposed for their civ icon is also wrong. That is an Aztec symbol for a water spider seen in a codex. It is incorrectly used by new age groups to represent some vague yin-yang concept that isn’t a part of actual mesoamerican civilizations. I would suggest one of the many Zapotec glyphs instead that exist.

Now for the Tarascans/Purepecha. Again the ai image isn’t representative at all for them. This is how they should look:

And if you want a Purepecha woman on their as well these are some examples:

This might be just me being nitpicky but I also think calling them Chieftains is kinda misplaced. The Purepecha to begin were a bureaucratic centralized empire, and the Zapotecs are better described as a disunited group of city-state kingdoms.

Since you have the Maya in there with a campaign I’ll note that the ai image is not at all representative of them either. The pyramids are the only thing that look a bit like the Chichen Itza and Mayapan temples. But just dropped in the middle of a jungle with no other visible urbanization is a pretty generic & inaccurate portayal.

One last thing the UU names feel uninspired. The Purepecha have a specific elite warrior called Quangariecha (in fact the top guy with the blue shield and bronze weapon is one). The Zapotecs are a bit harder to think of a better name at the moment.

[Hzdrafxx]

Look the post above mine.