China and Mongolia should exchange counterweight trebuchet and traction trebuchet

Counterweight trebuchet was invented by Muslims, and then the Mongols introduced it into the Chinese battlefield and used it to capture China’s Xiangyang, that is, the special unit of the Mongolian campaign.

However, counterweight trebuchet was almost never used in ancient China, and traction trebuchet has been the mainstream for thousands of years.

Every city occupied by Mongols in Central Asia relies on counterweight trebuchet. In other words, Mongolian talents are loyal users of counterweight trebuchet, while China has almost never used counterweight trebuchet.

In addition, through the early game promotional films, I noticed that China seems to use traction trebuchet. Why should it be changed? Therefore, I suggest: China and Mongolia should exchange counterweight trebuchet and traction trebuchet.


Although the Chinese first invented mangonel, in ancient China, the counterweight trebuchet was never the mainstream, and the manpower driven mangonel was the mainstream.

At the same time, the Mongols have used the counterweight trebuchet much more than the Chinese. Almost every city they captured in Central Asia depends on the counterweight trebuchet. The Mongols captured Xiangyang City in 1267, relying on trebuchet,Mongolian talents are loyal users of the counterweight trebuchet, not China.

It can even be said that counterweight trebuchet gained great reputation in the siege of Xiangyang City, which made the Chinese people see the power of counterweight trebuchet for the first time.

However, in aoe4, Mongolia does not have counterweight trebuchet in either battle or conventional battle mode, but uses China’s manpower driven mangonel, which is undoubtedly a very basic mistake. It is strongly recommended to replace the trebuchet and mangonel of the two civilizations.

More importantly, through the Mongols as the intermediary, Chinese talents briefly used the counterweight trebuchet for a period of time, which was soon replaced by gunpowder weapons. In fact, the whole of Asia, including the Japanese and Koreans, is also dominated by human driven mangonel, so it is suggested that China and Mongolia exchange mangonel and trebuchet, At the same time, the later Asian countries also adopt the manpower driven mangonel (except Mongolia).

The counterweight trebuchet is called “回回砲” in China, which means the Muslim siege weapon,It is an imported product and non mainstream,It was introduced into China by the Mongols as an intermediary, but it was only used by the Chinese for a very short period of time. Therefore, in aoe4, the Mongols use the manpower driven mangonel, while the Chinese use the counterweight trebuchet, which belongs to the most basic mistake.
Therefore, it is suggested that China and Mongolia exchange mangonel and trebuchet.

chinese:

japanese:
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Mongols:

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It’s all about the difference between the Mongol’s khanate and the Yuan dynasty.
It seems to me that dev team consider the invading force of the Mongols lead by Kublai Khan, which built the counter weight trebuchet to conquer south part of China, is part of Yuan dynasty, and therefore considered as part of Chinese as well.

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It can be distinguished by the dynasty system.During the Tang and Song dynasties, manpower driven mangonel could be built. And in the Yuan and Ming dynasties,counterweight trebuchet could be built.

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The only point is, i don’t think dev team will make this like an upgrade to further complicate the already complicated Chinese lol.

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At least the Mongols should not use manpower driven mangonel.

I noticed that the siege weapon of the Mongolian campaign was actually a manpower driven mangonel. It seems that this design is not for the balance of the game, but a basic historical mistake.

It can even be said that counterweight trebuchet gained great reputation in the siege of Xiangyang City, which made the Chinese people see the power of counterweight trebuchet for the first time.

However, in aoe4, Mongolia does not have counterweight trebuchet in either battle or conventional battle mode, but uses China’s manpower driven mangonel, which is undoubtedly a very basic mistake. It is strongly recommended to replace the trebuchet and mangonel of the two civilizations.

Just adding an upgrade is not complicated.

The Mongols get a giant unique counterweight trebuchet in the campaign.

Also Castle Age China (when you unlock the trebuchet) is the Yuan dynasty.

So I wouldn’t see this detail as historically inaccurate.
But maybe it would be nice for both to use the traction one.

btw. traction trebuchet were also more common than counterweight ones in Europe. They were usually much smaller and build to attack the defenders on the wall instead of damaging the buildings themselves.
Maybe a small trebuchet unit that does 100% damage to units on walls would have been a nice game mechanic. (if walls were more useful)

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sure,At least the Mongols should not use manpower driven mangonel…

From the perspective of game balance, China and Mongolia should also exchange catapults.Or add an upgrade option from manpower to gravity?

Counterweight trebuchet was invented by Muslims, and then the Mongols introduced it into the Chinese battlefield and used it to capture China’s Xiangyang, that is, the special unit of the Mongolian campaign.

However, counterweight trebuchet was almost never used in ancient China, and traction trebuchet has been the mainstream for thousands of years.

Every city occupied by Mongols in Central Asia relies on counterweight trebuchet. In other words, Mongolian talents are loyal users of counterweight trebuchet, while China has almost never used counterweight trebuchet.

In addition, through the early game promotional films, I noticed that China seems to use traction trebuchet. Why should it be changed? Therefore, I suggest: China and Mongolia should exchange counterweight trebuchet and traction trebuchet.

I think it would be an interesting buff for China to get traction trebuchets in feudal age or song dynasty

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While it is true that the Mongols have used the Counterweight Trebuchet in the Siege of Fancheng and Xiangyang, these were build for them by engineers of the Persian Ilkhanate and I cannot find any source on a Khan before Kublai Khan using them (13th century). In fact Genghis Khan specifically used the Traction Trebuchet as he was turning his Khanate into the largest empire of the world.

However I do agree that, if the Mongols have the Traction Trebuchet in game, the Chinese should as well as they only started using the counterweight version after the Mongol and Cham sieges in the 13th century.

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Great post ! I like when people like you provide detailed information and explain their opinion bringing facts and (specially in AoE) history.

I am not familiar with Chinese History, I’ve only read a bit after playing with Chinese here and trying to understand the Dinasty system. I was expecting it to be something divergent/ branching, in the sense that when you pick a Dinasty, you win some stuff (bonus, tech, buildings & units) and lose others, but instead they made it linear: just one Dinasty after another.

Would it make sense for you if you pick one Dinasty you get one of the trebuchets, and if you pick the other you get a different one? According to what I read, one of the Dinasties had a mongol as a ruler (or was heavily influenced by them) so it would make sense that it would be less defensive in that case.

This is the thread I wrote with my idea and I would like to know your opinion, since you know a lot about Chinese History:

I know that Dinasties followed one specific order, but I like this idea, hehe

Maybe it can be modified to:

Both China and Mongolia use traction trebuchet?

Personally, I don’t think the dynasty system is suitable for China, because these four dynasties can be said to be four forces with completely different styles. It may be suitable for the civilization. However, in terms of the rhythm of the AOE, it is very strange to span four dynasties in a short time. Maybe this mechanism can be retained, but it seems more reasonable to call it another way, such as choosing different leaders.

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I think that would be the most accurate solution.

In the beta version, traction trebuchet was changed from a general unit to a Mongolian exclusive unit (with exclusive symbols). I think the purpose of the production team is to deepen the Mongolian fast break style…

Or suggest that China and Mongolia use traction trebuchet together.