China doesn't need a full rework - an alternative

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
1

Chinese is in a tricky place, where they have important unexplored/underdeveloped elements such as flamethrowers, consulate armies and mercenaries (other Asian civs suffer from the same last 2, particularly in longer games), while also being overpowered in other areas.

I understand that this last factor is why people don’t wanna see anything other than nerfs to the civ. I agree with most of the nerfs, but these underdeveloped elements shouldn’t be so.

I have to say too that I really really disagree with a lot of the propositions on China I see around because they drastically change the civ gameplay and identity.

China has so many unique elements but at the moment, they are just memes. Devs have touched some of these units, but in my opinion, they are going on the wrong direction on a lot of them (not all).

  • Disciples: I don’t care about the mercenary multiplier if I have access to infinite spies from the consulate now. Also, I’ll still lose to all anti Calvary mercenaries. When you build White Pagoda, they should be able to snare, be stronger and faster than Spanish dogs and maybe have multipliers vs cav to fill that whole for China; it is the perfect opportunity to make it viable, specially versus heavy cavalry civs.

  • Flamethrowers: the reduction to 3 pop is nice but the base problem persists. These units have lower range than even a musketeer (they should outrange them and if you want to reach them you do it with cavalry or artillery), don’t have enough speed to catch up to them fast enough and their multiplier vs artillery is useless when they get one shot by canons that they cannot even reach unless they are literally on the face. Also they are not buffed 20% by artillery cards as they used to be in TAD, despite sucking. I reported this as a bug already.

  • Mercenaries: Koxinga was a nice addition (3 nerfs is a lot tho) but what Iron Troops really need in the late game is more range to still counter fully upgraded dragoons. Please don’t make manchu 3 pop and give Asian civs access to infinite mercenaries like other civs and to imperial mercs. Remember that these civs can only build mercenaries from one building, it shouldn’t cause balance issues, it didn’t with european civs that can upgrade them with special cards and arsenal even. It would be nice to have consistent access to manchus too considering their cultural significance and role for the civ.

  • Consulate armies: I am going to refer only to the armies and not technologies. I really liked the change to dragoons for the Russian consulate, since the other ones were basically unobtainable. I think that all Asian civs should have access to consulate armies as reliably as Malta has access to “tongue” armies. So these civs should get waaay cheaper armies, but locked behind a card (the export equivalent should be equal in resources to Malta tho, not overtunned either). So I suggest massively buffing the Indian card that does this, remove the penalty and raise the discount by a lot more. This card should be available to all Asian civs.

  • Outlaws: Considering China’s history with them, it would be quite fitting to see new cards focused on buffing them. Perhaps even a “sends x number of Woku Horse archers and unlocks them at the tavern”.

I would love to hear your thoughts, even if you agree with some points and not all.

6 Likes
2

Infinite spies was a good addition to British consulate but the problem persists as you need the slowest resource ingame while other civs can easily retrain them if lost.

Disciples could be just infantry in order to not lose vs anti cav units, like spies

3 Likes
3

Maybe keshiks need a little buff (+2 of range) and also flying crows need some pop reduction.

4 Likes
4

Hola, es agradable ver que los chinos les interesan a mas jugadores, concuerdo sobre la opinión de reducción de población del lanzallamas, 4 era demasiado para lo torpe que es al rodear tu ejercito por que su alcance limitado y su tipo de artillería lo hace marchar en retaguardia y retrasarse en alcanzar el enemigo. Fue lamentable ver la llegada de los lanzadiscos malteses por que son mas rápidos, tienen mas alcance disparo, un área de 3 para su salpicadura mientras la del lanzallamas chino es de 1. y con otras cartas obtienen cohete y ataque de lanzallamas. además en tratado china tiene problemas para asediar las bombardas fijas maltesas con su alcance de 40. el lanzallamas. pienso que siendo una maquina montada sobre ruedas su capacidad de daño por área debería ser similar al área de un lanza discos maltes, del cual creo que valen 2 de poblacion.

Siendo los chinos de aoe 3 inspirados en la dinastia qin. de origen manchu esperaría una carta infinita para reclutar manchus, además su anti cav de keshik deberia tener mas rango, estamos hablando de jinetes nómadas de origen mongol/manchu reclutados. dado su corto rango y su animación de arquero los encuentro ineficientes para perseguir raideos. esperare a ver que pasa con el mas 15 de vida y la armadura de doble cara pero realmente no es una tropa para tanquear, necesitan +2 de rango.

el changao. suele ser la pareja del arcabucero, y en menor medida del martillo meteoro. se supone que tiene una funcion anticavalleria.y llega a ser desente contra jinetes con poca vida, pero caballerías hiper pesadas le pasan por encima sin apenas costos para ellos. en tratado esto es doloroso vs gendarmes franceses, spahis otomanos, jinetes reales de holanda. entonces sujiero que en la carta de combate manchu se otorge 1 de area al espadachin changao para que haga respetar el largo de su espada y no sea solo skin, o que agrege x1 contra caballeria y como en la misma carta estan los keshik alli podrian ganar su +2 de rango. siento que hay mucha antencion sobre el arcabucero pero poca sobre su compañero. justifico darles el 1 de area al changao por que seguiran teniendo poca vida y daño comparados con Doppelsoners alemanes, o Maceros incas. o caballeros craneo. que llegan a tener 2 o 3 de area.

finalmente considero que el bonus de población china esta desacutalizado. hoy los incas acumulas mas tropa escondiéndola en sus kallankas y fortalezas, los rusos tienen 210, y los iroqueses además de aliados nativos infinitos pueden sumar poblacion con danzas de la plaza comunitaria. de base tienen 220, pero pienso que seria interesante si pudieran tener una carta para aumentar otros 10 de poblacion. recuerden que las mejoras de imperial de los poblados no aplican el ultimo aumento de poblacion no tendrian que dar todo lo que les corresponde. pero en un aoe 3 actual donde hay muchas unidades de infanteria y caballeria con area de daño ademas de la artilleria, y donde hay piezas de artilleria especiales como el gatlin con daño constante, o cartas como la metralla para suecos y portugueses. entonces con 230 podrias reunir una masa mas interesante de morteros, o lanzallas, o esteparios.

sobre el palacio de verano pienso que un mini rework interesante seria que otorgara un buffo a las tropas del tipo que esta espameando. los bonus segun las combinaciones serian:

chukonu+estepario 1 flecha mas para el chukonu, y mas 5 de daño para el jinete de estepa.

piquero qian +chukonu mas 20 de vida para el qian y 1 flacha para chuko nu.

piquero qian + keshik mas 20 de vida para qian y 0.25 de velocidad para el keshik. serian interesante por que asi el keshik no tendria el mayor alcance como el jinete real francens o el dragon portugues o la velocidad de disparo del jinete con rifle lakota, pero seria el mas veloz. quisa a la par del zamurak.

mayal de hierro+martillo meteoro. un ataque cargado para el mayal de hierro donde su area de daño sea de 2 y su pegada de 50 en vez de 30 y tantos como es el normal, después de ese primer ataque fuerte el resto serian normales hasta que se recarge. para el martillo meteroro su bonus seria recuperar su vieja armadura mas 40 anti disparos. sumando solo la armadura que le falta para recuperarla, ósea un 0.5, pero la vida se queda como la actual. recordemos que la vieja armadura de doble cara daba un mas 30% de vida y +20 de armadura antiproyectil.

para la combinación mayal de hierro y arcabucero. el mayal tendría el ataque cargado que mencione antes y el arcabucero tendria un mas 5 de daño a distancia.

por ultimo la combinacion changao mas arcabucero, donde el arcabucero tendria el mismo daño y el changao quiza un ataque cargado con bonus, su daño base seria el mismo, no este ataque en area no tendria area pero su bonus contra caballeria sumaria un 1.25 mas a los que ya tiene. haciendo que esa primera unidad de caballeria a la que ataque el changao la pase mal.

Este es mi humilde aporte para mi civ favorita. también juego ###### ####### en fin me encantan las civs de spam trash. leere de cuando en cuando posibles respuestas, y agradezco a a quien abrio el tema de los cambios a china. Buen dia

6

China ahora mismo es probablemente una de las mas fuertes, quizas con los nerfeos ya no sea asi pero seguiria siendo fuerte.

En cuanto a la cav pesada si es la debilidad china pero no significa que no puedan pelear contra ella, en 3° pueden sacar el ejercito negro o enviarse los manchues los cuales pueden manejarla bien.

1 Like
7

Claro, por eso lo que yo progongo son más bien cambios a elementos que son poco usados pero interesantes para darle a la civ diversidad. En general, no estoy de acuerdo con darle buffs a otras cosas que son parte del “core”, aunque si entiendo las ganas de querer mejorar a su anticav. Mi filosofía es más bien usar elementos externos a las unidades normales para complementar en este rol, más que a las unidades actuales.

8

I’m not against it, since both units are not great, but I think that those are more buffs to their core, than boosting their interesting side elements.

9

Export needs a whole rework, make it closer to influence for african civs.

10

It would probably be simpler to just get rid of it. It’s confined to a single building and not integrated into the civ like influence is.

1 Like
11

My Two Cents On Improving Underused Elements (Note that these are just buffs to make these elements viable. I have not considered corresponding nerfs to weaken their supposedly OP FF.):

Changdao

  • HP Buffed to 160 HP (from 120).
  • Speed Nerfed to 4.5 (from 5).
  • Nerf Cavalry bonus from x2.25 to x2.
  • Some Age 4 Card should give it splash damage.

This unit needs a buff. It is a 100 resource (10 XP) melee unit that dies to muskets in a pure melee fight (no, it is not the Chinese equivalent of Halberdier or Rodelero). Its anti-cav damage is also not that good (Qiang PIkeman do slightly more). While I get that the Chinese unit should be fragile, the Changdao is too weak. Were it not bundled with the Arquebusier in the Territorial Army, this unit would probably never be used.

Flamethrower

  • Remove Infantry Tag.
  • Increase range to 12 (from 10).

Given tha# it will be buffed to 3 pop, it needs to survive 2 or even 3 falconet shots (kill on with 3 or 4 shot). In general, any X-pop infantry (Grenadier, Mantlets, Doppel, Samurai, maybe even Arrow Knight) need to survive X-1 falconet shots. Otherwise, they are just high-XP artillery targets.

The range boost is just so that they do not get kited as effectively by Musketeer. Musks can still bump-and-shoot. Any unit with bonus vs. Artillery can still shoot them to pieces.

Manchu

  • Atonement allow for Manchu (and Iron Troop) creation from the Monastery.
  • Age 4 Manchu gets a Home City Card buff, maybe named Solon Martial Training (similar to Koxinga and the Iron Troops).

The Qing not being able to create Manchu is weird, and the Chinese really needs a good anti-cav. Furthermore, Manchu needs to be viable in Age 4 as well, so the Home City Card may be needed.

Banner Army

  • Swap the Forbidden Army (Meteror + Flail) and the Black Flag Army (Meteor + Changdao), so that the former is trained in the Castle, and the latter in the War Academy. Also modify the Summer Palace and Consulate Blockhouse accordingly.

This is just my preference, as it makes the Castle the “Chinese Stable”. I do think that this would weaken the Chinese FF slightly, as their “power army” is locked behind the Castle.

2 Likes
14

I really like this! It is weird indeed. I think maybe it could give Manchus a bit more range and increase the multiplier vs cav. I also think that Koxinga should give Iron Troops more range, since in the lategame they can barely counter Dragoons anymore (specially Portuguese ones). But final thoughts… Manchu should be good in Age IV as well yes, but all mercs should stay relevant in Age V, by giving them access to imperial mercenaries as I pointed out.

15

It is a civ bonus of asian civs.

16

Not a bonus, the consulate is a key feature of Asian Civs since it allows them to get vital things they otherwise couldn’t but it’s badly implemented. Influence is basically what export should be like.

Mostly because export is such a finicky and hard to control resource that you can’t spend efficiently. Like why getting musketeers with falconets even though India already has sepoy.

It’s worth considering getting rid of export.

1 Like
17

It is meant to be that little additional thing. Doesn’t have to compliment your army. For india getting some extra musketeer together with sepoys are ok, why not? Tjey can walk in same group, move at same speed, it is fine. Also there are other consulate options as well. Like japan getting dutch mortar when they already have mortar. They can spend those exports for some thing, so you can use food wood coin for other armies

18

You trade your normal gather rate of other resources for the export. You don’t have many other ways to improve the gather rate besides a 0/5/10% in one single building. The Asian techtree has several crucial things intentionally cut off and you can only obtain them through consulates (80% of the time bundled with stuff you don’t really need) ——and you can only spend exports in large batches in this way.

On paper you spend 800 exports for 9 musketeers and 1 falconet. Looks pretty fair. In reality you cannot get a single falconet if you dont have 800 exports, while you have no other alternatives.

19

I don’t see any problem with this honestly. Unless you were a new player (which is not the case), you know what to expect from consulate armies. Just adapt to them. Playing as chinese, this shipment gives you musketeer, a unit they lack. Playing as indian, just produce a little bit less sepoy. Moreover, consulate units shadowtech, so I don’t see them as a nuisance.

20

This alone is not a problem. It’s like Chinese banner army or Russia’s batch training. Both a bonus and a restriction, giving the civ a different pacing than others.

But all these factors I mentioned combined makes it a very wacky system. It’s like Russians can only train villagers and infantry in batches, not 3 or 4 but very large ones, and they only have a slow food trickle as the only food income.

That’s only one of the cases. Most others are not that necessary.

1 Like
22

I get what you mean and you’re right, this is only one case. Perhaps they should give us the option to train consulate units independantly from one another, just like russians.

23

Once you reach the imperial age, these should increase the speed of arrival, just as it happened with shipments from the metropolis that arrive much faster once you advance to the imperial age.

24

Export is a small passive bonus for Asian civilizations, with few chances to boost it, locked behind a building.

I am obviously against eliminating a building as interesting and diverse as the Consulate. I suspect that people in favor of eliminating it most likely don’t tend to play with Asian civs or don’t have it incorporated in their builds.

I think that players should have the opportunity to have it as a more active part of their play if they so choose. The best way to do this is via a shipment/s. You can currently do this to a great extend with Consulate Technologies through the card Good Faith Agreements (that also increases speed arrival @OperaticShip743 ). All Asian civs have this card, and the same should be done with this India exclusive card that currently sucks because of how small the discount is.

image
image858×106 21 KB

For how small the gather rate of export is (with minimal ways to boost it), the discount should be 40 to 50%, just like Good Faith Agreements does for Technologies.

4 Likes