Future of Native Americans

The original version is there. Nobody has touched it for 15 years. Nobody ever will. You’re in safe hands.

In hindsight, yes. Too bad i already bought de though, on the assumption that it was definitive. But you’re correct - in general, purchasing games in 2023 isn’t a very smart move.

Wrong. The civ I’m from has just as many elements in this game that can be considered insulting or humiliating. I just don’t give a crap because it’s just a game

That’s why I also need to continuously add disclaimers like “without touching the core gameplay” in the ideas about many other things…
I have rather wild ideas on some other aspects and I tend to support writing about radical changes for the devs to look at but eventually it would be a compromise. The devs would take some of the ideas but still need to make it practical.

I think there are a few veteran native civ players who are pretty accustomed to their pacing and prefer it does not change, which is also the exact reason why not many people play these civs (their unique but odd pacing). Honestly I don’t know what would be a good move.

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I propose the wild ideas knowing that the devs will trim them down. There’s a fine line between too wild to be considered and potentially usable if we cut it down, but I’d rather walk that than give a weak compromise that solves nothing and changes little.

The civs have a 7.6% playrate, which is about half of what they should have (read upwards on this thread for that). Lakota are currently severely underperforming, and a tier chart I saw recently put them dead last. The Lakota, at least, could use a complete rework and a very small sect of players would be bothered.

The Haudenosaunee are more well-played and generally tend towards S or A positioning tier charts, but it’s usually due to their insanely fast rush abilities more than just about anything else. Realistically, they’re not played for any of their unique aspects, they’re solely played for their ability to do one thing super well.
If that one aspect can be preserved in some fashion, a rework would do them just fine as well.


Yeah sure. I think practicality is not what we should really care about too much.

I wrote that because the post I’m replying to talks about practicality and the impact on the gameplay.

From what we can see easily, the European civs are played the most. They’re the simplest. They are followed by the Asian civs, which is likely because they can often do many of the same things.

The Natives and Africans are dead last - I think the Africans feel unpolished, like a solid idea, but one that wasn’t cleaned up particularly well before being used.
The Cattle gimmick requires a lot of micro, but this is one position where I’d argue that the high micro is fine - some civs should be hard to play, and the Africans fit this position.

The Native civs, however, are not that difficult to play. Everything about them is simple… except the Plaza. The Plaza requires more micro than everything else about them, and it’s not helpful to their gameplay, and it unnecessarily gimps their late-game, completely removing their viability from treaty games altogether.

The proposition I gave sets up the Tortuamerican civs with the potential of creating many more Native civs in the future, should the reworks prove popular, and simultaneously creates more simple gimmicks for the Natives that feel more natural to play. The Native civs revolved around natural resources already - they’re strong in the early game because of this. It’ll feel natural for players to try and push that advantage as long as possible, but they’ll still wear down in the late game (for all but the highest elo players) because they won’t be entirely capable of refreshing natural resources as they go, and they’ll still lean on the Three Sisters Garden for the bulk of their economies in the late-game.


I don’t even know who you think you’re talking for since there’s been many, many, many threads claiming how the chinese civ is wrong and the many ways it could be fixed, most of those threads coming from the chinese community itself.

(Also they also fixed the voice lines because I mentioned how everything had grossly inaccurate accents in the TAD version of the game.)


Hey, my discussion of this stuff has nothing to do with my personal feelings.
I never mentioned my feelings, so don’t try to assume I have a opinion and posted personal feelings about your culture.

I mean, you describe some reference to the potentual scout/spy unit in the game but also sexual orientation is really something that games don’t need to describe. We don’t need to know whether this French skirmisher or that British musketeer is straight, gay or trans. Maybe Winkte was a scout group historically made up of gay men, but in the game it’s just a name and a skin or a card after all.

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this sums up my above post quite well

the cattle are actually quite a solid bonus, and the units arent balanced around selling cows, just resource macro. it’s a good mechanic, although i agree they both feel unpolished

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The Winkte were a society of gay men and trans women, specifically chosen because of that.
You’re the one who avoided actually reading the three different scout groups I offered because one of them was based on being two-spirit.

Eh, my statement about the Africans feeling unpolished is more of a general thing. I’ll concede that the cattle gimmick is one of the things the civs do well - it’s other things, like their military being a little unclear or the fields being annoying, that feel unpolished.

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And I indeed read them. Can you stop labeling me?
I don’t care that much about why those scouts were chosen, any more than I care about the criteria by which the French Grenadier Guards are chosen. For me, it is enough to know that there are suitable references that can be used as units in the game.

There are so many things can be try before removing the plaza.

For example, the advanced plaza card can reduce the tasking limit from 25 people to 15 people (that is, the efficiency of each person is +66%), and allows the plaza to choose 2 or 3 ceremonies at the same time. To lower the micro requirement, maybe make the unit garrisoned instead of tasked on top of it, so that the entry and exit of people can be better controlled. Ceremonies can gain a base rate that increases with age advancing.


Believe it or not. I also have suggested to change the natives voice been too feeble here. And guess what? They did change it.
I also emphasised that those opinions are mine and my friends’s.
As far as I can tell, our communities faced different issues. Will you please not to make any confusions? For the Chinese, our goal is to improve the game and not to cut off anything or make it harder to play. But the Lakota’s issue is political. That’s complicated.

I hate that it is. It shouldn’t be political for me to point out, “This is historically inaccurate, here are some alternatives that are more accurate.”

Yet, somehow, it is extremely political for me to do this.


Uh… can you go ahead and try to clear up those ####? I honestly am not sure what you’re trying to say.
ADD: Giving you the benefit of the doubt here because I know the censor catches completely innocent words a lot.


Benefit of the doubt was a bad idea, you seem to conflate two-spirits with racists. One is intensely political, the other is not.


Imagine someone being so offended by “things that try NOT to be offensive” to the degree of making analogies with things that are truly offensive.

That’s the marvel of internet baby.


Just flag him and ignore him. He doesn’t care about history. He only cares that his personal, highly bigoted and extremely backwards views are the only views in the game.

Correction: History


What is perfectly normal to you, might be considered offensive to someone else. The argument was historical consistency i thought, but not the history we dislike of course.

Maybe we should leave out uniqueness all together then? All aoe2 civs are essentially the same - it doesn’t make the game worse though. Contrary even

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Yes, correct. I don’t want politics, especially american identity politics and cancel culture, in this game. And I’m willing to sacrifice historical accuracy for that. You seem not to.

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Hot take: I think it does.
If anyone were to make a similar game 20 years after aoe2 they wouldn’t make every civ the same.

So native Americans NOT dancing around fire pits in a video game is as offensive to you as some real serious slavery and racist irl?