So beastyqt is a crying player xD
Okay 
Springalds and horsemen etc will defend grenadiers, so those mangonels are out of counter man.
See there is the mistake.
You donāt see the unit historically.
Grenadiers were one of the most fragile units in any army.
They are weak in melee, range etc.
They are way too situational unit.
You seem fine to drop a made under your foot.
In battle, it will be a suicide. Not a cost-effective approach.
AOE4 depicts grenadiers wrong.
Many people donāt understand and donāt want to drop a nade under their footā¦
Very few loud players have no idea about this unit, but still, they talk too loud and spread their senseless opinion.
Thatās why I suggested making it āsiegeā, it would be more fragile to springald (30+70=100) and light cavalry (+13 +10 = +23) or culverin (102+100), and that would respect their historical fragility. Well, the other idea is to lower the HP to the level of the elite archer (95) or that of other handcannoners (130), as Samuel suggest.
In theory, I think that if the devs. has changed its attack from ranged to siege damage, it was to prove a new mechanic, possibly to make new units (Would be for slinger for maya, aztec and incas, maybe? Well, one can dream). Although, in Aoe3 they solved the problem of amassing them by making it a unit of 2 population cost. In fact, that would be an interesting solution to not amass so many, but one that is effective and quite useful. I add it to the list:
5.- Increase the population to 2 (1 ā 2).
Same as Age of Empires III, this prevents it from massaging to absurd levels, but still being lethal, and even a cheaper, faster replacement for the catapult that occupies less population.
6.- Reduce their damage (13 ā 9), but let them a bonus aggainst ranged (+4, as mangonels)
In that case the unti become as a cheap sustitute of mangonels, faster and etc, etc. but they can be healed by monks and take shelter, which is a plus. That and increasing its minimun range to 1, same as the min range of other siege units in the game, so it retains some realism (no dropping grenades at point blank range). I put it at point 1 of possible balancing solutions.
1 Like
I must admit that that is indeed a reasonable suggestion.
Lets set the balance problem aside. There are indeed too many designs in this game that are not real in history, and still many mistakes about Chinese.
Like Chinese didnāt have crossbowmen until age3 in game, even though they actually equiping crossbows since 300 BC.
And there are no heavily armored infantry in the Song Dynasty, even though Song Dynasty was the most developed period in Chinese history for heavy infantry.
Then, the Fire lancer, they are incredibly skilled at anti-buildings, how come?
Also, the NOB should not be good at anti-armor, it was only used to defense lightly Mongolian cavalry.
As for the grenadier, they were actually used for castle defense.
These units were designed to fit the dynasty system, but nothing to do with history.
Perhaps we need to reconsider these designs.
4 Likes
true, song dynasty lack of armor cav or maa, especially playing against HRE its hard to defend against their maa rush
1 Like
You know, Chinese has IO after all. If Chinese has heavy armor units or crossbow before age3, it would be a disaster for other civs.
Relic have some ideas seems to be cool at the beginning, then they just rigidly install other elements into the structure derived from those ideas.
i see, you are right
DM me and we can test it.
Thatās why tournaments exists. Let pros do dirty job.
But, i believe the latest Octogon showed the mighty of grenadiers.
if you do not know - does not mean that it does not exist already.
Welcome to Teamgames, where people knew it for ages.
Game should be balanced for both 4vs4 and 1vs1.
1vs1 just ends before grenadiers, thatās it.
overall, itās beasty in āscenarioā.
In real world he kills opponent before grenadiers.
But issue was always here.
they are like mini-wonder (wonder is expensive but can be killed), but here Grenadiers are expensive and just killing opponent.
1 Like
grenadiers cannot defeat mass longbows.
1 Like
You are the one crying, not Beasty. He doesnāt suggest to nerf grenadiers neither, you did.
2 Likes
Half the civs got culverin, its your problem not knowing how to manage them. Mangonels need to be protected, just learn to do it.
Iāve been testing the grenadier with the partner @PRhift and the grenadier in a decent mass loses if ranged units split and move a bit (even split only), they also lose to ranged light cavalry and heavy cavalry (heavy cavalry in similar numbers, but is tough). They are good at siege and are good if you donāt splite or if you get sidetracked with siege or if you use melee units with no bonus against gunpowder units. Beastyās test was with stacked units and thatās where the grenadier has the strength.
Thanks for the test and correct my words
P.S: Probably nothing needs to be nerfed, in any case, the NoB thing could be reverted (itās unnecessary +2 rockets). Iāll see the most useful Fire Lancers perhaps for battle.
4 Likes
I think itās just way too soon to say theyāre OP.
Streamers are posting videos and stuff for clicks with titles about how theyāre āOPā, but then the video has like 60 grenadiers against nothing trying to really kill them. A cheaper army of mangonels and archers and/or some cav should make short work of them.
2 Likes
Thank for the test as well :), I also didnāt know the outcome, so the test helped clarifying it a lot.
Our test had
40 grens VS 40 normal HC in split Mode, ~23 HC survived.
40 grens VS 60 archer with mehter buff, ~22 archers survived
40 grens VS 43 Sipahis, ~18 Sipahis survived
5 Likes
Well, i think the S5 change of chinese solve the main strength of chinese tho: iāts very powerful late game but almost unkillable early on,
- they got zhuges, taxes, scout with extra LOS, they build can easily react with faster building production, they got supervision to beat even the council hall, they got barbican, they got village, they build palisade and outpost faster
- All while having a super eco behind with song, taxes, and drop off supervision
With Zhuge Nu now cost more food, it will make chinese need to go out for food early on, or barbicanning deer instead of gold, that make for you a window for attack.
And donāt forget:
-Sipahi Got buffed
-Delhi got Ghazis
-Mongols got khesiks
-Abba can go FC to ghulams (which help with chinese PG spam)
-Arbaletrier got buffed (help to deal with chinese mid game)
Suddenly, civ that has almost no tools to deal with chinese early defense got some decent power to break that barrier, along with zhuge nerfs, that should tempt you to kill chinese in feudal or early castle
But at the same time, they buffed chinese late game, to reward chinese player some good stuff after enduring those early pressure. Like:
- Now Spirit Way and Imperial Palace can be tax drop off (useful for proxy granaries which chinese player often do, or proxy deer camp or boar, lr even proxy woodline)
- Zhuge costing 20 gold make it spammable even when map run out of gold, which zhuge will deal favorably against goldless units.
- NoB got buffed
- And dev bring back grenadier, which is still counterable like what adribird90 said
So if after all that early defense got nerfed you still got grens in your base, i feel no sorry to that.
They donāt sound OP at all. In all those cases the grenadier army was as expensive or more expensive than the army that crushed it.
3 Likes
Link your replays plz so we can see the experiments
1 Like
My nickname in the PuP is Adribird. Look for the nickname.