Chinese language

I would like to talk about the language spoken in aoe4. Sounds like Mandarin is spoken by the Chinese in the official trailer (can’t hear clearly so correct me if I am wrong) but I am not sure if this is entirely historically correct.

The four dynasties appeared in aoe4 are (1) Tang Dynasty (around 618-906), (2) Song Dynasty (around 960-1276), (3) Yuan Dynasty (around 1279-1368), and (4) Ming Dynasty (around 1368-1644).

My understanding is Mandarin was “the common spoken language of administration of the Chinese empires during the Ming and Qing Dynasties”. (p.s. Qing Dynasty appeared in aoe3 but not aoe4) so if Ming Dynasty is chosen then yes the Chinese should speak Mandarin.

However, my understanding is the official language of Yuan Dynasty should be Mongolian, not Mandarin (not sure if I am correct as I saw someone called it Old Mandarin). And the common language of Tang Dynasty and Song Dynasty should be closer to Cantonese, not Mandarin. For example, Tang poem is more fluent and rhythmic if read in Cantonese rather than Mandarin.

Any history / language expert has any ideas? What languages were spoken during Tang, Song and Yuan Dynasties?

I am thinking, assuming that Mongolian was spoken during Yuan Dynasty and Cantonese spoken during Tang and Song Dynasties, then if Yuan Dynasty is chosen, the Chinese should speak Mongolian and if Tang Dynasty or Song Dynasty is chosen, the Chinese should speak Cantonese. When a player select a new dynasty then its language will override the previous one.

I am a history fan and I only want the game to be as historically accurate as possible. Purely academic. Feel free to discuss.

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You are correct in terms of history, but impossible in terms of game play.

In that logic, English and Franks in game shall speak celtic/proto-germanic/latin/norman, etc. depends on their dynasties, which is totally unnecessary.

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The devs could be removing The Mongol Yuan Dynasty (from the Dynasty system) because it conflicts with the Mongols. This dynasty is Mongolian, not Chinese.

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I have news that will please you about AOE4. The civs will be speaking a different form of their language depending upon the age. The English for example will speak a more primitive version of English in dark age vs the imperial age. This will hold true for every civ. I learnt it from a YouTube video by a guy who has been playing the game for a year as he is on the community council helping give feedback during development. I think it was Likador? I am sure it was from that video anyway. I’ve also watched a couple of interviews with devs recorded after the fan preview event though.

Maybe they will do something with Chinese based on dynasty.

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Thanks for the info. That is interesting.

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He speaks about it 25 minutes in.

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No. it doesn’t not conflicts at all.

Mongols as a united empire only lasted very short period of time (1206-1259), from Genghis Khan to Mongke Khan.

When Kublai succeeded Mongke, he was only the nominal Great Khan of Mongol Empire. But his ruling territory is only China and Mongolia, while Chagatai Khanate, Ilkanate and Golden Horde were de facto independent.

Mongol khanates had constant wars among them. Golden Horde (Jochi lineage) fought Ilkhanate (Tolui lineage), Yuan (Tolui leanage) fought Chagatai Khanate (Chagatai lineage).

e.g. Esen Buqa–Ayurbarwada war was fought between Yuan/Ilkhanate and Chagatai Khanate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esen_Buqa%E2%80%93Ayurbarwada_war

So, historically, it is accurate that Yuan Dynasty fought other Mongols.

Also, Yuan is definitely a Chinese dynasty, or at least both Chinese/Mongol dynasty. History decides a dynasty by its people and ruling territory, not just rulers. Yuan’s people and territory are mainly Chinese with Mongol rulers. And Kublai declared himself emperor of China.

If Yuan dynasty is considered only Mongol not Chinese, then Normandy/Angevin/Plantagenet dynasty should be considered only French not English, Which is not the case.

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Read more reliable history references, not just Chinese. They always claim Chinggis Khan is a Chinese emperor etc because he was the Emperor of his conquered dynasties in the region. You really should cover all the available sources.

The Japanese invasion of the Mongols happened during the Yuan Dynasty. When the Japanese (don’t know how it was called during that time) received a letter from Khubilai Khan, it was referring to his “Great Khans” title. Not “Emperor of China”, because it is the smaller title. not known elsewhere.

He ordered his men and family members to bury his body in Mongolian territory next to his father and grandfather “Chinggis Khan”. How can this person be Chinese?

His laws were against the Chinese people. Especially, Northern Chinese.
For example, the Mongols created laws for the Mongols who are non-taxpayers (fine), non-Chinese people who pay normal tax (less severe punishment), and Chinese (southern and northern), they would pay more than 2 times tax and the penalty was instant death. No prisoning etc.

How can it be Chinese?

And read Pax Mongolica, (the Mongol Peace).

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You think too much.

Yuan dynasty is part of Chinese history. It is a period of Chinese history ruled by Mongols. It is simple.

In fact, “Yuan” itself is a Chinese word, used to describe a Chinese dynasty ruled by Mongols. I don’t think Mongols themselves even use the concept of dynasty, or call this period of history as Yuan dynasty.

In your logic, a lot of dynasties (Sui/Tang/Qing) were not Chinese dynasty either, just because their emperors had non-Chinese bloodline?

Your mistake is judging a dynasty only by its rulers’ ancestry.

In that logic, Norman England is not an English dynasty but French, Delhi Sultanate is not Indian dynasty but Turkic, Mughal dynasty is not Indian but Mongol, Kevian Rus Rurik dynasty is not Russian but viking .

But that is not how it works.

Kublai succeeded Mongol Khan in 1259, conquered China in 1271 and established “Yuan”. He was an emperor of China, and Yuan was a dynasty in Chinese history. It doesn’t matter if the emperors were Chinese or not.

You are over complicating things here.

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For me i wouldnt care if they speak old mandarin or new mandarin or some made up language. Same goes for english civ. The best sounds in AOE2 was not the ones that used perfect language with perfect accent at that time or whatever but something i didnt even understand like slaves saying “smookum, maolai”

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That is it. You admitted it. It is part of China’s History. The Mongols are a major part of Eurasia’s history. They ruled various regions. but they are not Chinese. That makes sense to you now. But then you are getting it wrong by implementing the CCP philosophy. Only the Chinese claimed Yuan Dynasty is Chinese, The Mongols are Chinese. It is so annoying. Japan, Korea, Vietnam all say the Mongols. Only China claims all the time it is Chinese. They don’t know when and how to admit it…

By the way, Chinggis Khan found The Mongol Yuan Dynasty 1st. Not Khubilai. Again, read history…

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What is CCP philosophy? Why do you care what CCP thinks?

I think you are over-complicating the things and annoying yourself. lol

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You see, people around the world have different philosophies. They think and see things in a different way. But you are mixing things and confusing yourself.

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As a Chinese, I need to tell you that the language spoken by soldiers in the trailer was not the modern mandarin, but the Northern Mandarin of Ming Dynasity, which sounds like the former but some syllables are not the same. So I believe that developers have researched the history in this aspect.

And I have to correct you, Mongolian and Mandarin were both the official languages of the Yuan Dynasty. Each Yuan emperor learned Chinese language and characters. By the way, Mandarin was still the most popular among the people in Yuan Dynasity. Considering that it belong to the Chinese Civ, I don’t think there was anything wrong with the soldiers of Yuan Dynasty speaking Mandarin Chinese. (Historically, there were many Han people in the army of Yuan Dynasty)

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Interesting discussion on Yuan Dynasty.

Well… Yuan ruler considered Yuan as a Chinese Dynasty. The title of Yuan is a Chinese text, the ruler also claimed that he was the successor of former Chinese dynasties in the proclamation of the dynastic name. Officers were also commissioned to compile the history of former dynasty (Song Dynasty).

On the other hand, the Chinese also considered Yuan as a Chinese dynasty in Chinese history textbooks.

So I think it is no harm to treat Yuan as a Chinese dynasty.

The race of the ruler should be less relevant. Otherwise, the UK would be considered as a French nation as the Queen is descended from medieval French kings. If my memory is correct, Prince of Orange was originated from France too, but we can say Dutch is a French nation, right?

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The Yuan Dynasty is also known as the “Mongol Dynasty” and is the 1st foreign dynasty that ruled all of China.

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I totally agree that Mongols are a major part of Eurasian history. They ruled large of part of Eurasia, not only China. Nobody denies that.

That is why I said Yuan dynasty is a Chinese dynasty ruled by Mongols. It is part of both Chinese and Mongolian history.

China is a multiethnic country. Unlike Mongols/Mongolians, “Chinese” is not monoethnic, and Chinese =/= Han. Han is just 1 of the many ethnics in China.

“China” is a geographical concept of its territory. And “Chinese” is a nationality/citizenship concept of its people.

According to international law, ethnic Mongolians in today’s China are Chinese citizens. It is correct to call them Chinese, although they are not Han. It is the same that people of all ethnics/ancestries in USA are Americans. But of course, Mongols of Mongol Empire were not Han Chinese. Nobody said they were.

And you shall check again history about Yuan: Mongol Empire =/= Yuan dynasty. Chinggis Khan founded unified Mongol empire. But his descendants divided it into independent khanates after Mongke’s death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_of_the_Mongol_Empire

Yuan was only 1 of the 4 khanates: Golden Horde, Chagatai, Ilkanate and Yuan. None of them existed during Chinggis Khan’s lifetime.

Yuan was founded by Kublai in 1271 after he conquered China, much later than Temujin’s death in 1227. It was both a Mongol khanate and Chinese dynasty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_dynasty
“The Yuan dynasty was a successor state to the Mongol Empire after its division and a ruling dynasty of China established by Kublai Khan.”

You have the right to believe your own version, but please get some basic facts right. There is no need to waste time for further discussion on this.

/peace

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Even Chinese people don’t know what ancient Chinese looks like. It’s lost. It’s almost impossible for foreign game makers to use all kinds of ancient Chinese. But it’s a good idea. It’s interesting.

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OF COURSE the Yuan Dynasity is a Chinese dynasity.

  • Its territory of dominion is similar with other Chinese dynasity.
  • Its major ethnic group was the Han, just the same as other Chinese dynasties.(Despite the Han Chinese were in a lower social position than the Mongols at that time)
  • Its political system was developed from the previous Chinese dynasties’.And Many Han people served in the Yuan bureaucracy.
  • Chinese culture continued to develop and spread in the Yuan Dynasty without being destroyed or replaced by Mongol culture.
  • Its successors, Ming Dynasity, recognized the Yuan dynasty in the Yuan History written by Ming as a Chinese dynasty rather than a foreign one.
  • Its rulers, according to historical records(Official documents sent to Japan, for example), called themselves Chinese Emperor and called the country he ruled China.
  • Its one of official languages, was Mandarin, like I said.

So,is there any reason to exclude the Yuan Dynasty from Chinese history? Also, we consider the Yuan as a part of Mongols’ history, since its rulers were Mongols. There is no contradiction between both of the facts.

You kept arguing whether Genghis Khan or Kublai Khan was a Mongol or a Chinese, which doesn’t make sense to me. The Chinese doesn’t refer to a single specific race. The counterpart of Mongols is Han, not Chinese. And we never said Genghis Khan or Kublai was Han. It’s just like arguing whether William the Conqueror was a British or a Norman

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Why do Chinese people care about foreigners’ views and understanding when they understand their own history? Foreigners don’t know the history of other countries. A country’s history is best understood only by itself. If you study the history of Asia, you will know what they think of China now. Ancient China was the object of study in Japan, worshiping the traditional culture and system of the Han nationality in China. Japan was a student of China, only recognizing the orthodox Han nationality in China, but not interested in the non Han nationality rulers in China. However, there were many foreign rulers in the Chinese dynasty. They also learned the Han culture, inherited the Han Dynasty system, and were proud of inheriting the Han Dynasty, so they regarded themselves as orthodox Chinese dynasty, and so did Yuan Dynasty. So Yuan Dynasty is also a Chinese dynasty, and Chinese history.What is the status of the Roman Empire in the eyes of Europeans?

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