Now that HRE start the game with a prelate i think it would make sense for the Chinese to start with an imperial officer as well, then i thought if should the player start without the resources it takes to create that IO and then i had the following idea:
Each age comes with a free IO, but you can’t create any more unless they get killed.
Imperial Academy allows IO to drop off tax there and allows you to produce extra IO (one extra per age or maybe a fixed 2 extra) in adittion to the extra tax generation. Or instead of extra IO just give the Imperial Examination tech for free.
Imperial Palace allows IO to drop off tax there and has an area of effect supervision like the Aachen Chapel and instead of the Imperial Spies ability it has some tech to make IO more useful in the Imperial age. Imperial Spies could be moved to a Ming Dynasty bonus.
Other miscellaneous Chinese suggestions:
Reduced cost of the second landmark to achieve a dynasty, as it is now any dynasty beyong Song is way too expensive and generally not worth it unless you are in a really advantageous position and it’s just overkill
Reduce the HP bonus to clocktower units to 25%-35%, but allow the building to be supervised
The Spirit Way allows nearby buildings to create all dynasty units (even if locked) at a reduced cost (maybe 20% instead of 30%?)
These changes probably aren’t balanced but as the Chinese civ stands right now it feels really weak in comparison to English/French/Mongols in pretty much everything except late game gunpowder units or Barbican rush.
Please let me know if anyone agrees on any suggestion or how would you tweak them to make them feasible.
Bonus suggestions: i don’t really play abbasid but wouldn’t it make sense to get a free tech each time you build a wing? Also losing the game because you lost only you House of Wisdom and Towncenter is kinda sad, how about your oponent has to get your golden age to 0 to defeat you ie destroy your HoW and the nearby buildings in its influence.
my idea is that the village always offers 40 of population, comparing with the other civilizations the saving is the following: 4 houses are 200 of wood, the adlea costs 125 of wood, therefore the saving is 75 of wood (remove the population limit of 40)
Nice ideas man, but it’s been a few months and a thousand suggestions for the Chinese (you can go back a few pages to see the topics) and things are just going downward. At this point I believe the team gave up on making things workout for the civ.
Compared to auxiliary units of other civilizations (such as priests or scholars), the tax system of imperial officials is unlikely to be the main income to play, because it is unstable and unpredictable, and can only be used as auxiliary income that is better than nothing. This resulted in a large number of players only being overseen by Imperial officials who were not assigned to collect taxes until late in the game, and even then they would be hard to use because they would have to be near the center of town to collect taxes, and by late game The player’s buildings are usually scattered all over the map.
As for the clock tower, it would be nice to reduce the build time of all artillery units or provide some kind of buff like the Riding Academy, but I don’t have a good idea at the moment.
Sorry but I don’t think that chinese economy need a buff.
The changes you suggested are all economy based, and chineese civ is by far the civ that can boom the economy fastest that any other civ.
First dinasty, producing villagers 35% faster and a few IO are enough to give in the middle feudal a lot of economic advantage to them.
The real problem y that you have to invest a lot to get into the dinasty and get the IO’s, but I think this is part of the game.
If you are investing in economy and your enemy in military, obviously you will get smashed in feudal, but this happens to abbasid, delhi, and the others civ that can’t access to men at arms, or any other powerful feudal age unit.
It’s hard to suggest a buff to china since in late game is one of the best civs. If you buff also the early game it would be an OP civ.
The devs simply don’t care enough about Chinese. We have been talking about Chinese issues since closed beta and stress test and pointed them out. And changes are coming months after release, if at all. But some of them are detrimental. Chinese keeps getting nerfed for some reason, while English only gets buffs in the exact same patch.
Meanwhile, the changes to Granaries were another huge step back into the wrong direction.
I have suggested to make Keeps act as a drop-off point for Tax many months ago already. This would already almost solve the issue of Chinese being unable to gather tax from mining camps, lumber camps and production buildings in the middle of the map at conteste spots.
The devs have no problem with Rus turning wood into gold from anywhere on the map, but the Chinese tax system is such an overly complicated system that falls flat and is unreliable, just like you guys already pointed out.
And even after months the devs have refused to fix this issue which could have been fixed long ago.
As you said only improving the early game whithout changing the late game whould be OP, so nerfing some late game things would be justified.
But justifying that Chinese should have a weaker feudal because Abbasid and Dehli also suffer from it doesn’t seem fair to me, if anything they should be compared to the English which are the more “streamlined” civ.
Other civs like French have an amazing offensive early game while also having faster villager production (to make an analogy to the Song dynasty)
My main problem with the Chinese is that you start as a weak civ and then you have to heavily invest resources to enable your civ bonuses, which results in barely keeping up with other civs or lagging behind hoping you will get to the late game where your investment pays off.
Of course i just my opinion and not really taking into account team games balance, so feel free to disagree.
what they could do is reduce the cost of the second building that unlocks the song and yuang dynasty, for example: you choose a distinctive building to go to castles that costs 600 and 1200, but the second building must cost less resources. The current cost doesn’t justify paying 1200 + 600 for the Imperial Placio buff and the Fire Lancer unit unlock (which was heavily nerfed). And it’s also not worth paying 2400 +1200 for the great wall and unlocking the grenadier, the grenadier is strong but equally expensive
The devs added a +10 second build time for Imperial Officials in the pre-release patch when we were testing out changes for the first ranked season. This gives a good incidator on how the devs think about Chinese balance.
Meanwhile, they just added a free starting Prelate for HRE. Only because of giant outrage on all forums did the devs decide to not add the +10 second build time for Imperial Officials.
I don’t know why but somehow the devs think completely differently about Chinese than everyone else. We don’t see Chinese being picked on all maps. We don’t see it dominate the games where Chinese wins. There is no justifcation for it to get nerfed every single patch.
Standard china song dynasty boom style meta is effective on defensive maps like hill and dale mongolian heights and altai. But meta boomy isn’t as strong on open maps bc too much to defend.
I suggest china meta players learn and perfect their tower and bbq rushes for open maps. China can pull off a strong dark age tower rush that’s NOT an all in!! And the gold from barracks and prolonged dark age gathering can help you skip building a gold mine in order to age up. Then depending how your opp wants to respond to your tower rush you can fast castle, horseman harass into steady boom or even straight boom while enemy diverts early resources into rams.
Take notice to the win rates over ranking. Gold, platinum+ china players have same win rate over game length pattern as lower ranks HOWEVER china is around a 50% win rate!! IMO the similar win rate over game length pattern suggest to me meta playstyle.
IF anything!!! Improve the granary by reducing cost (down to 175w-200w) and dropping the stack buff for a flat buff (15% to 20%). Revert the village cost back to 100w. And finally… a big buff. Allow IOs to collect 60 tax at base gather rates and change the Imperial palace upgrade from a fedual upgrade to a castle upgrade that TRIPLES that tax collection capacity from 60 to 180!!
This would kill the flexibility of multitasking IO, I totally disagree with this one, and I think most china players also don’t like this idea.
From my perspective, China is in a fine spot rn, early game they have ZGN, which I think ZGN + spear is one of the strongest composition in feudal, and can easily mass as china. The weak spot of china may be, there is nothing special to deal with armor units, which I think is fine, china has a lot of things else.
China is fine as is!!! It has no apparent weaknesses. You can dark age tower rush, bbq rush, delayed bbq drops, song dynasty boom, fast castle, etc!! If the game goes into a prolong feudal only 2 maybe 3 other civs can hang with china AND 2 of the 3 need lots and lots of gold to compete (french and English w/ maa).
Improve the efficiency of the granary. Remove the stacking buff for a flat 15%+ granary aura. And reduce the cost of the granary to 150- 175 wood.
I don’t know what to do with yuan dynasty cost?? Because yuan dynasty is some times achieved AFTER Imperial for the speed and niche fire lancer play. The pagoda itself is a decent building if you have 3 relics, but pagoda and speed and niche fire lancers IMO is missing something to be worth yuan dynasty as oppose to saving up and going imp first??? I JUST FIGURED OUT WHAT YUAN DYNASTY IS Missing!! … auto tax… make it so all future tax generated once Yuan dynasty is achieved is auto collected. BUT the tax previously stored in buildings BEFORE achieving Yuan dynasty would instantly cache. This would generate an instant gold flux and generate future gold SOONER and free up all 4 IOs to strictly supervise. AND IF THAT’S NOT ALREADY ENOUGH? Yuan dynasty adds 2 to you IO capacity which means you can make 2 more for a total of 6 IOs. Auto tax, pagoda, 15% movement speed, fire lancers, (+2* IO)…if that’s not worth going to castle twice then we can’t see eye to eye…
All the dynasties are way too expensive for simple reason they’re too expensive xd
But as it follows:
Feudal 2nd landmark is 600 resources and 2nd TC is 700. 1TC song is worse than 2TC and 2TC song is equal to 3TC. So here is the dilemma. If opponent goes 2 TC, you can’t counter it with Song, so you have to go 2TC and getting song sets you behind quite lot.
Because the villager production scales depending how many TC’s are created it creates this paradox and issue. 1TC song if hardly worth especially when most opponents do 2TC so china is almost always forced to respond same way which actually is like shooting themselves in leg.
Yuan - Way too expensive. Offers nothing. Now that siege is dead and ■■■■ there is no reason to get clockwork tower anymore. I had like 5-6 lancers I think insta shot siege units with melee attacks. Just run on top of them and attack, not even charge needed and what spears can do when I run 50-60 lancers to them? Nothing. Top of that bombards don’t even kill horsemen anymore xD Literally a joke. I made 5 nest of bees and their dmg and shot from fow and barely did anything to them
Ming - Is now biggest meme. HRE gets cheapest and one of the best imp age landmarks and its ■■■■■■ 20% cheaper while china has to build 2 ■■■■■■ ■■■■ landmarks that do jackshit whole game. They just sit there being useless. I never thought devs could make them worse but here we are.
With these changes all dynasties should cost 500-600 resources to unlock, because how ■■■■ they’re and they offer nothing for the resources.
It would be nice if chinese get 5% discount for each landmark already built, even if you don’t count the 1st TC the last landmark would have 25% discount
You could potentially save from 8000F n 4000G to 6600F and 3300G to unlock all dynasties
Another way could be to have a 15 or 20% flat discount, so you save more resources early when Chinese doesn’t shine