Civilization Content - 8 Suggestions

Dear AOE2 Lovers,

This may be a (really) long post. I know there is a lot of talk regarding improvements in terms of pathing and other quality of life features, while also certain comments explicitly state that new content should not be or not always be centered around DLCs with new civilizations. With the newest patch information released yesterday, get hopefully improved pathing, new QoL features, re-skinned buildings/units etc. but also we indeed get new civilizations based on the splitting of the current Chinese. While this is now the second time we see the separation/splitting of one Civilization into multiple ones, this inspired me to look into detail into the Italians as these are based on the multiple Republics in Italian Peninsula. Based on historical events & facts, not currently used Civilization Boni, I was inspired to split the Italians into the suggested/proposed Venetians, Genoese, Florentines and Vaticans, and attempted to come up with a potential Tech Tree.

First, all Italian-derived civilizations have a trade bonus (based off of silk road) and have access to Condottieri which, for each civilization, get either an attack, HP or armor boni/tech similar to eagle warries with Mesoamerican Civilizations. Condottieri are now only available for Italian-based civilizations;
Venetians Condottiero: ATK, Genoese Condottiero: HP, Florentine Condottiero: Armor, Vatican Condottiero: 20% Cheaper

Venetians

(Gunpowder and Naval Civilization)

Civilization Boni:

  • 15% Cost reduction for fishing ship (current Italian bonus)
  • Hand Cannoneers are affected by thumb ring
  • Hand Cannoneers get armor +1/+1 Armor in Imperial Age
    • Hindustani’s Gunpowder Unit already receive +1/+1 Armor. Maybe change the current bonus in such way that only Hindustani Bombard Cannon benefit from the armor, since their Hand Cannoneer already benefit from the extra +2 range technology. Can give Hindustani hand cannoneer +5 or 10 HP as replacement.
  • Trade Cogs and Trade Carts cost -25% or -33% (current Tech Silk Road)
    • Costs have been reduced from -50% since this is now a free bonus

Team Bonus:

  • Team gets access to Mounted Crossbowman
    • Anti-Gunpowder Unit (like Condottieri with the idea that at least from one Italian civilization, other team members have access to one anti-gunpowder unit like they used to with the condottieri)

Unique Units:

  • Condottiero (Barrack)
  • Stratiote (Castle)
    • Cavalry
  • Explanation for historical resemblance: Mounted Mercenary recruited by Italians appeared to be a Light-Cavalry like-Unit with Melee Weapon and had access to Javelin/Spear.
  • Galleass (Dock)
    • Organ gun like ship, armored maybe like a turtle ship but mildly faster (or speed of cannon galleon) with similar but lower damage output due to multiple projectiles
  • Explanation for historical resemblance: Galleass was a heavily armored but slow(er) galleon which was notorious for its firepower and any opponent vessel struck by the broadside of the galleass firearm was heavily damaged. Hence, multiple powerful projectiles shot by a galleass.

Unique Techs:

  • Castle:
    • Cernida
      • Infantry Units are produced 20% faster and Condottieri have +4 ATK
  • Explanation for historical resemblance: Typical training regimen for 2/10 men in Italy in the 15th century to allow for faster recruitment
  • Imperial:
    • Venetian Arsenal
  • Upgrades docks to Fortified Docks/Arsenal
    • Shipwright like upgrade; 45% faster production (no access to ship-right) and 20% wood discount. Tech may just confer 10 or 15% extra faster production in addition to the 2 Boni below and shipwright must be research separately
    • Fortified Docks + extra 400 HP (Harbors have +200 HP)
    • Shoots projectiles like harbor but missiles instead (like Persian Castle)
  • Explanation for historical resemblance: The arsenal in Venice was the largest shipyard containing armories allowing for fast vessel production (hence extra +10% production speed on top of regular shipwright), shielded by large walls (hence fortification bonus), where also arms and ammunition are made, maintained and stored (hence shooting missiles)

Wonder:
St. Mark’s Basilica

Genoese

(Archer and Naval Civilization)

Civilization Boni:

  • Galleys and Galley Line are produced faster 10% Feudal Age, 15% Castle Age, 20% Imperial Age
  • Explanation for historical resemblance: The city of Genoese also had an arsenal mainly functioning as shipwright but smaller in scale compared to the venetian one. Hence only galley line affected.
  • Dock and University Technologies are 33% cheaper (current Italian bonus)
  • (Automatically) Start with Crossbowman in Feudal Age (but only with 4 instead of 5 base range, but with base HP, attack and armor as regular Castle Age Crossbowman) OR Upgrade for Crossbowman is available in Feudal Age (but only with 4 instead of 5 base range (same as above)) and Arbalester being available one Age earlier as well.
    • +1 Range for Crossbowman will be unlocked/available upon reaching Castle Age.
  • Explanation for historical resemblance: Simply for the common use of crossbowman in Italian armies.

Team Bonus:
Trade Cogs and Trade Carts have 2x HP and +2P Armor (like Japanese Fishing Ships)

Unique Units:

  • Condottieri (Barrack)
  • Genoese Crossbow (Castle) (current Italian unique unit)
  • Galleass (Dock)

Unique Techs:

  • Castle:
    • Thalassocracy (like Malay)
  • Imperial:
    • Barbutes
      • Barrack Units receive +15 or +20HP
  • Explanation for historical resemblance: Typical war helmet worn by Italian soldiers in the 15th century

Wonder:
Genoa Cathedral (current Italian wonder)

Florentines

(Infantry and Gunpowder Civilization)

Civilization Boni:

  • Advancing to the next age -15% (current Italian bonus)
  • Gunpowder units are 20% cheaper (current Italian bonus)
  • Archer-line and Condottieri +1/+1 Armor in Castle Age and Imperial Age, respectively (+2/+2 total) (derived from Pavese, current Italian technology)

Team Bonus:
Team players benefit from trade profits granted through Bank/Treasury.

Unique Units:

  • Condottieri (Barrack)
  • Gonfaloniere (Barrack)
    • Infantry, replacement of champion (similar to legionary)
  • Explanation for historical resemblance: Different Gonfaloniere positions existed. Gonfaloniere of milita or of justice. Typical for Florence.
  • Da Vinci’s Tank (Castle)
    • Gunpowder Unit/Siege Weapon

Unite Techs:

  • Castle:
    • Gentoturo (Tower’s will have 3 or 4 Tile Radius where adjacent Tower’s will be buffed)
      • +1 or +2 Attack
      • +1 Range
      • +10% HP
      • +5 Pop Capacity

2 Towers adjacent to each other are minimally required for the Bonus to Work. Does not stack with multiple towers in the same tile radius (i.e. +2/+4 ATK, +2 Range etc).

  • Explanation for historical resemblance: Cities like San Gimignano, Bologna are known for their towers which were thought to be to fulfill both residential and defense purposes
  • Imperial:
    • Interest/Interest Rate
      • Have access to the unique building ‘Bank’ or ‘Treasury’ which increases the trade profit per building by 10% (max. 3). 150 stone, 250 wood (TBD).

While Spanish get a (free) 25% trade bonus, Florentines have to invest to get a trade bonus, thus get an extra percentage resulting in 30%. Having Spanish and Florentine in the same mean does not result in stacked Boni of 55%. i.e. Spanish and Florentines in the same team only need one bank/treasury to get to 30% or maybe max. 35%.

Explanation for historical resemblance: The Medici family dominated the Florentine Trade with their banking system and gathered their wealth through trade and interest). Hence, this is a Florentine bonus.

Wonder:
• Palazzo Vecchio OR Florence Cathedral

Vaticans

(Civilization of Monks and Infantry)

Civilization Boni:

  • Cogs and Trade Carts move 15-25% (exact % TBD)
  • Defensive Technologies in the University are upgraded Faster (40%): Masonry & Architecture, Fortified Wall, Tower Upgrades
  • Condottieri costs reduced by -20%
  • Militia-Line receives +1/+1 armor in Castle Age and +1/1 in Imperial Age (+2/+2 total)
    • ** compensation for loss of Plate Mail Armor; see unique unit Swiss Guard)

Team Bonus:
(Fortified) Monastery costs less wood and have more HP (-50 or -75wood, HP TBD)

Unique Units:

  • Pope (Monastery)
    • only 1 at a time
  • Swiss Guard (Barracks)
  • Condottieri (Barrack)
  • Swiss Mercenary (Castle)
    • Infantry

Unite Techs:

  • Castle:

    • Ancient Architecture (Fortified Monastery automatically shoots a small sets of arrows without units garrisoned), OR
    • Tiara (gives Monks +20 or +25 HP, then no sanctity available)
  • Imperial:

    • Pontifical Oath,
      • Enables access to Swiss Guards

Wonder:
St. Peter’s Basilica

Tech tree/ore detailed Civilization Info for Italians

Venetians

Unique Units:

  • Stratiote (Castle)
    • Mounted Mercenary, Light-Cavalry like-Unit with Melee Weapon and had access to Javelin/Spear. Can receive a charge attack like Coustillier but instead of extra attack the charge attack confers stratiotes one attack with +1 or +2 range. Other ideas could be a Karambit-like mounted worrier or mounted Shotel-Worrier with high Attack, medium HP. Currently, stratiote exists in krakenmeister civ builder website.
  • Mounted Crossbowman
    • Anti-Gunpowder Unit with a set range e.g. +5 (like gunpowder unit). Like gunpowder units the mounted crossbowman affected by archer amor upgrades (Padded Archer Armor etc) but not Fletching etc (maybe affected by extra ATK but not extra Range of Upgrads). Thumb ring and ballistic affect Mounted Crossbowman given that this unit shoots bolts like an archer.
    • Base Attack +6 (all TBD)
    • +7 ATK vs Gunpowder Units
    • +2 vs Cavalry Units

Barrack.

  • Units: Champions/Two Handed Swordsman, Halberdier, Condottieri
  • Techs: Lacking Gambeson, maybe Elite Champion Upgrade

Archery Range:

  • Units: Crossbowman, Elite-Skirmisher, Hand cannoneer, Cavalry Archer
  • Techs: Lacking Arbalester Upgrade, Parthian Tactics, Heavy Cavalry Archer Upgrade

Stable:

  • Units: Light Cavalry, Cavalier
  • Techs: Lacking Hussar-Upgrade and Paladin Upgrade

Siege Workshop:

  • Units: Capped Rams, Onager, Heavy Scorpions, Bombard Cannon
  • Techs: Lacking Siege Ram, Siege Onager Upgrades

Monastery
Lacking Heresy, Sanctity and Theocracy

Black Smith
All Upgrades available

University
Lacking Keep, Heated Shot, Arrow slits and Architecture (maybe Masonry to balance around Fortified Dock/Aresenal)

Dock
Units & Techs: Dock Tech Tree same as current Italians but + Galleass

Eco Upgrades
Lacking Gold Shaft Mining, Two-man Saw as well as Crop Rotation.

Genoese

Unique Units:
Genoese Crossbow. Stays as is.

Barrack.

  • Units: Champions, Pikemen, Condottieri
  • Techs: Lacking Gambeson, Halberdier Upgrade

Archery Range:

  • Units: Arbalester, Elite-Skirmisher, Hand cannoneer, Cavalry Archer
  • Techs: Lacking Parthian Tactics, Heavy Cavalry Archer

Stable:

  • Units: Hussar, Cavalier
  • Techs: Lacking Paladin Upgrade

Siege Workshop:

  • Units: Capped Ram, Onager, Scorpions, Bombard Cannon
  • Lacking Siege Ram, Siege Onager and Heavy Scorpion Upgrades

Monastery
Lacking Heresy, Fervor, Illumination

Black Smith
Techs: Lacking Blast Furnace

University
Techs: Lacking Architecture, Fortified Walls, Treadmill Crane and Arrowslits

Dock
Units & Techs: Dock Tech Tree same as current Italians but + Galleass

Eco Upgrades
Lacking Gold Shaft Mining and Crop Rotation.

Florentines

Unique Units:

  • Da Vinci’s Tank
    • Similar to bohemian Hussite Wagon in function and gameplay. While the Hussite Wagon can reduce the damage to units behind them, the medieval tank could garrison 2-3 Units, even though historically soldiers were garrisoned in the Hussite wagon as well.

Barrack.

  • Units: Longsword (->Gonfaloniere), Halberdier, Condottieri
  • Techs: Access to all, besides Champion upgrade.

Archery Range:

  • Units: Arbalester, Elite-Skirmisher, Hand cannoneer, Heavy Cavalry Archer
  • Techs: Lacking Parthian Tactics and maybe Thumb Ring

Stable:

  • Units: Hussar, Cavalier
  • Techs: Lacking Paladin Upgrade

Siege Workshop:

  • Units: Siege Ram, Siege Onager, Scorpions, Bombard Cannon
  • Techs: Lacking Heavy Scorpion Upgrades

Monastery
Lacking Herbal Medicine, Faith, Block Printing and Illumination

Black Smith
Lacking Ring Archer Amor, Plate Barding Armor

University
Lacking Siege Engineers, Heated Shot and Architecture

Dock

  • Units: Missing Elite Canon Galleon and Dromon
  • Techs: Lacking Dry Dock and Elite Canon Galleon Upgrade

Eco Upgrades
Lacking Gold Shaft Mining and Town Patrol

Vaticans

Unique Units:

  • Pope (Monastery)
    • only 1 at a time, costs 200 gold (therefore double HP)
    • 70 HP (unaffected by Sanctity)
    • +2 extra pierce armor
    • confers Monks Aura Boni
      • In castle age confers small boni of castle upgrades (without them being upgraded)
        • +5 HP (derived from Sanctity)
        • +5% movement speed (derived from Fervor)
        • +5 Conversion Resistence (derived from Devotion)
      • In Imperial Age confers small bonus of imperial upgrades (including those from castle)
        • Continue to give aura boni from castle age plus
        • +1 range (derived from Block Printing)
          • so Vatican monks will have in Imperial Age a max range of 13 (12+1 from Pope)
        • +5% Rejuvenation (Derived from Illumination)
      • Similar to monk in all white/gold + papal- Mitra & Ferula + cape in player colour
    • Aura Boni Confers Swiss Guard +5 HP, +1 Attack (optional)
  • Swiss Guard (Barracks)
    • Replacement of Hellebardier (requires Imperial Age Upgrade)
    • Same Stats as Hellebardier but +5 or +10HP and +1 range (like Kamayuk).
      • **Since this is wood and food requiring and barrack-produced unit, Vatican’s don’t hace access to scale mail armor. Lack of armor is thought to balance spearmen-line, champions however should not be effected by this, hence given extra armor. Ultimately champions receive +2/+2 extra armor ultimately resulting in +1 extra melee armor in imperial age.
      • Inspired by accurate Swiss guard. Metal Chest plate covering the traditional blue, yellow red color scheme. Helmet for in game units can be modified by player color.
  • Swiss Mercenary (Castle)
    • Heavy armor infantry unit.
    • Conversion resistance Boni.
      • As Unit not as strong as Teutonic Knight but more tanky than a Seargent. Stats TBD
        • Castle: 75HP, ATK 9, 4 melee and 3 pierce
        • Imp: 90 HP, ATK 13, 6 melee and 4 pierce
      • Inspired by Assassins’ Creed II Swiss Guard

Unite Techs:

  • Castle:
    • Ancient Architecture,
      • Fortified Monastery automatically shoots a small set of arrows without units garrisoned
      • OR
    • Tiara
      • Gives Monks 20 or 25HP (#Then no sanctity available).
  • Imperial:
    • Pontifical Oath,
      • Enables access to Swiss Guards

Barrack:

  • Units: Champions, Pikemen (-> Swiss Mercenary), Condottieri
  • Techs: Lacking Gambeson, Halberdier Upgrade

Archery Range:

  • Units: Arbalester, Heavy Skirmisher, Hand Cannoneer, No Light Cavalary
  • Techs: Lacking Parthian Tactics and maybe Thumb Ring

Stable:

  • Units: Hussar, Paladin
  • Techs: Lacking Blood Lines

Siege Workshop:

  • Units: Siege Ram, Onager, Heavy Scorpions, No Bombard Cannon
  • Techs: Lacking Siege Onager Upgrade
  • Alternatively:
    • Units: Siege Ram, Onager, Scorpions, Bombard Cannon
    • Techs: Lacking Siege Onager and Heavy Scorpion Upgrade

Monastery

  • Units: Monk + Pope
  • Techs: Lacking Herbal Medicine. #Maybe lacking sanctity, see Unique Tech Tiara

Black Smith
Lacking Plate Barding and **Plate Mail Armor

University
Lacking Siege Engineer, Treadmill Crane

Dock

  • Units: Galleon, Fast Fire Ship, Demolition Ship, missing Canon Galleon line and Dromon
  • Techs: Lacking Heavy Demolition Ship, and Dry Dock

Eco Upgrades
Lacking Two Man Saw and Crop Rotation.

While doing my research, I came up with more potential ideas for Civilization Boni and kept reading about bygone civilizations and came up with 4 additional civilizations. Two are African-inspired as these are currently quite underrepresented: Ghanaians and Beninese. During my reading I encountered that the current Malian Civilization may represent a big chunk of the West-African Culture/Civilizations and that there is a certain overlap between the Malians with the two proposed Civs; the Ghanaians and Beninese, I think they were, even historically, a different Kingdom and are thus worth getting differentiated from the Malians which we Developers can keep as they are. In addition to the Ghanaians and Beninese I also would like to suggest the (Pannonian) Avares and the Siamese. Starting with the African-based civilizations:

Ghanaians

based on the Ashanti-Empire

Civilization Boni:

  • Advancing each age grants gold (100, 200, 300)
    • equals Ethiopians in total resource received via their bonus.
  • Explanation for historical resemblance: Gold wealth and thus resulting gold trade.
  • Archer line walks faster
    • either gradually (like cumans): +2% Feudal, additional +3% Castle, additional +3% in Imperial (totaling 8%)
    • set speed (like celts) e.g. 5%
  • Gunpowder units fire 18% faster
    • Current Spanish civilization bonus. Given Spanish have already a total of 5 boni, the faster attack could be given to a new civilization. For compensation purposes, conquistador have faster attack speed as default (to keep Conquistadors as they are), but as a result hand cannoneers would be simply/rather more generic. Give attack speed bonus to Spanish bombard cannons.
  • Explanation for historical resemblance: Ghanaian trade import was a largely made of hand cannons.

Team Bonus:

  • Loom can be researched twice
    • Second loom upgrade may only confer 50% of the stats but still cost 50 gold.
  • Explanation for historical resemblance: Due to the widespread production of kente cloth.

Unique Units:

  • Ashanti Guardian (Castle)
  • Explanation for historical resemblance: Referred to as the Gyase, these soldiers were the personal bodyguards of the king or high rank military personal.
    • Slow(er), armor-ignoring infantry unit
    • Inspired by Destroyer in Age of Mythology. Sub-Saharian version of the Destroyer with wooden/brown shield with a gold covered edge with the center depicting the ‘Golden Stool’ the divine throne of the Ashanti kings.

Unique Techs:

  • Castle:
    • Batakari
      • Camel line +4 pierce armor
    • Explanation for historical resemblance: A traditional garment worn by Ashanti military forces in the 19th century. Thought to be bulletproof when containing talismans.
  • Imperial:
    • Kyretwie
      • Gives all units (except siege units & monks) +1/+1 armor and +1 OR +2 ATK.
  • Explanation for historical resemblance: A kente cloth pattern notorious for the Ashanti known as the “the lion/leopard catcher”. The pattern thus stands for bravery, extraordinary success and inspired leadership

Wonder:
Aban Palace

Beninese

based on the kingdom of Dahomey

Civilization Boni:

  • Villagers can garrison in military buildings (Barrack, Archery Range, Stable)
  • Fire Galley-line produced faster.
  • Archer-line receives +1 melee armor per Age (+3 total)
  • Camel Riders take less (bonus) damage from spearmen line.
  • Barrack costs -75 wood
    • similar to cuman stable and archery range (or just -50 wood thus 125wood overall)
  • Explanation for historical resemblance: Overall, kingdom of Dahomey was characterized as military-based to aggressive. Hence Boni should give Beninese the incentive for an aggressive play.

Team Bonus:

Relics generate 0.5 wood/s in addition to gold.

Unique Units:

  • Agojie (archer)
    • woman archer who can, similar to Rathas, switch between melee and range mode
  • Explanation for historical resemblance: Well-trained woman soldier during the time of the Dahomey empire.

Unique Techs:

  • Castle:
    • Xwetanu
      • Villagers work 10% faster and have +3 - +5 carry capacity when surrounded by additional 9 villager in a given tile radius.
        • Tile radius could be 9x9 such that 9 farmers in a square with perfectly placed farms boost farming villagers.
        • Georgians get a +10% work rate from “just” a Fortified Monastry, Beninese thus get extra carry capacity (TBD) as they will require a Castle being build.
      • Explanation for historical resemblance: Xwetanu was the annual Festival of the Dahomey.
  • Imperial:
    • Poisonous Speer
      • Agojie in melee stands ignore armor. Receives +1 range for Agojie in archer stands.

Wonder:
Statue of Agojie nowadays located in the city of Cotonou OR statue of Gbehanzin (aka Behanzin) nowadays located in the city of Abomey.

Tech tree/more detailed African Civilization Info

Ghanaians

Barrack.

  • Units: Champions, Halberdier
  • Techs: Access to all

Archery Range:

  • Units: Arbalester, Elite-Skirmisher and Hand Cannoneer, Cavalry Archer
  • Techs: Lacking Thumb Ring, Parthian Tactics, Heavy Cavalry Archer

Stable:

  • Units: Light Cavalry, Knight, Heavy Camel Rider
  • Techs: Lacking Hussar, Chevalier and Imperial Camel Rider Upgrade

Siege Workshop:

  • Units: Capped Ram, Siege Onager, Scorpions, Bombard Cannon
  • Techs: Lacking Siege Ram and Heavy Scorpion Upgrades

Monastery
Lacking Heresy, Atonement, Block Printing, Faith

Black Smith
Lacking Scale Barding Armor, Ring Archer Armor

University
Lacking Siege Engineer, Bombard Tower, Arrowslits, Architecture, Treadmill Crane

Dock

  • Units: Galleon, Fire Ship, Heavy Demolition Ship, Cannon Galleon
  • Techs: Lacking Fast-Fire Ship Upgrade, Elite-Cannon Galleon, Shipwright.

Eco Upgrades
Lacking Banking and Crop Rotation.

Beninese

Barrack.

  • Units: Champions, Halberdier
  • Techs: Lacking Arsen

Archery Range:

  • Units: Arbalester, Elite-Skirmisher, Cavalry Archer
  • Techs: Lacking Parthian Tactics, Heavy Cavalry Archer

Stable:

  • Units: Light Cavalry, Cavalier, Heavy Camel Rider
  • Techs: Lacking Hussar-Upgrade and Paladin Upgrade

Siege Workshop:

  • Units: Siege Ram, Onager, Scorpions, Bombard Cannon
  • Lacking Siege Ram, Siege Onager and Heavy Scorpion Upgrades

Monastery
Lacking Heresy, Fervor, Illumination

Black Smith
Lacking Blast Furnace

University
Lacking Architecture, Fortified Walls, Arrowslit and Bombard Tower

Dock

  • Heavy Demolition Ship and Dromon
  • Lacking Heavy Demolition Ship Upgrade

Eco Upgrades
Lacking Gold Shaft Mining and Crop Rotation.

Other Civilization

Avares

(Cavalry Civilization)

In English referred to as Pannonian Avares, 5th – 9th century.

Civilization Boni:

  • Each garrisoned Relic gives +10HP to Knights and Khagan (maximum +40HP)
    • No bloodlines
  • Cavalry Archer +20HP
  • Thumb ring can be researched twice.
    • Similar to the Ghanaian 2x Loom, the second Thumb Ring Upgrade may only confer 50% of the increased firing rate but at the regular cost of Thumb Ring.

Team Bonus:

  • The deer patch closest to the own town center is visible on the map from the game start.
    • Written so that in land or regular nomad maps, the entire map is not almost completely scouted by the visibility of deer. In Nomad maps one deer patch will be revealed upon completion of the town center, similar to the Vietnamese bonus.

Unique Units:

  • Khagan
    • Melee Cavalry Unit
      • Explanation for historical resemblance: Known as the leader of the Avars. The civ builder website by Krakenmeister.com presents a clibinarii which is a byzantine high armor soldier which has a promising look for a Khagan but should wear typical lamellar helmet.

Unique Techs:

  • Castle:

    • Composite Bow
      • Cavalry Archer +1 Range, +1 Attack
        • Similar to Recurve Bow but accessible in Castle Age at a lower cost (for example 400 wood, 300 gold compared to 600/400). This gives Cavalry Archer one extra attack like bohemian archer with chemistry and equalizes the range to non-British crossbowmen in Castle Age. This gives avarian cavalry archer a power-spike in Castle Age but with the lack of bracer this results that cavalry archer are rather generic in Imperial Age - besides attack speed due to 2x thumb ring. The Avares were succeeded by the Magyars and therefore there is some overlap between these civ, for sure in terms of their Castle Unique Tech.
  • Imperial:

    • Pannonian Weaponry
      • Khagan and Scout-Line* +1 Range

Wonder:
• TBD, Ideas: Horse Statue or another version of a Grant Tent similar to Mongolian wonder.

Siamese

Elephant Civilization

inspiration taken from the Ayutthaya Kingdom

Civilization Boni:

  • Wood choppers don’t carry wood but rather add it directly to the stockpile without any drop-off but work 5% slower.
  • For each converted unit a monk gains +5 HP
    • Also counts if opponent has researched heresy.
  • Fervor and Illumination can be upgraded twice.
    • Consistent with other civilizations who can upgrade certain techs twice, the second upgrade may confer only 50% of the stats but still costs the regular price.

Team Bonus:

  • Unique Units get +2 Line of Sight.

Unique Units:

Unique Techs:

  • Castle:

    • Ivory Arrows
      • Elephant archers gain +2/+3 range
        • Lack Bracer meaning less ATK but compensated by range. +2 or +3 can be determined whether Siamese lack Ring Archer Armor as well or not.
  • Imperial:

    • Devaraja
      • Battle elephants create 50% faster and cost -15 or 20 food.
  • Explanation for historical resemblance: Devaraja stands for divine king. In the context of a faster battle elephant production it could be interpreted such that a king in southeast asia had to rely on a good army size/reinforcements as often local battles were decided by the army size.

  • Alternative name could for the technology could be Phrai . Ramathibodi II established the corvee system in which men had to be registered as Phrai (servant) which were then subject to conscription.

Wonder:
Wat Chai Watthanaram

Tech Tree/More Infos

Avares

Unique Units:

  • Khagan (Castle)
    • High Armor Melee Cavalry Unit (90HP, 9ATK & Elite 100 HP, 11ATK. Armor maybe 2/3 for both regular and Elite Khagan. Balance TBD.

Barrack:

  • Units: Two-Handed Swordsmen, Halberdier
  • Techs: Lacking Champion-Upgrade and Squires

Archery Range:

  • Units: Crossbowmen, Elite-Skirmisher and Heavy Cavalry-Archer
  • Techs: Lack Arbalester Upgrade

Stable:

  • Units: Hussar*, Cavalier, Elite Steppe Lancer
    • *or Light Cavalry instead due to extra range despite already lacking bloodlines. Balance to be tested
  • Techs: Lacking Blood Lines, Paladin Upgrademaybe Hussar Upgrade

Siege Workshop:

  • Units: Siege Ram, Onager, Heavy Scorpions, No Bombard Cannon
  • Techs: Lacking Siege Onager Upgrade

Monastery
Lacking Redemption, Heresy, Block Printing, Theocracy

Black Smith
Lacking Bracer and Plate Mail Armor

University
Lacking Fortified Walls, Treadmill Crane, Architecture, Keep, Bombard Tower, Arrowslits

Dock

  • Units: War Galley, Fast Fire Ship, Demolition Ship, Dromon. Missing Canon Galleon line
  • Techs: Lacking (Elite) Cannon Galleon and Shipwright

Eco Upgrades
Lacking Stone Shaft Mining, Crop Rotation, Banking, Guilds

Siamese

Unique Units:
Chaturongkhabat

Barrack:

  • Champions/Two Handed Swordsman, Halberdier,
  • Techs: Lacking Gambeson, maybe Elite Champion Upgrade

Archery Range:

  • Units: Crossbowmen, Elite-Skirmisher, Hand Cannoneer, and Elite Elephant Archer
  • Techs: Lack Arbalester Upgrade

Stable:

  • Units: Hussar, Cavalier and Elite Battle Elephant.
  • Techs: Lacking Paladin Upgrade

Siege Workshop:

  • Units: Battering Ram, Onager, Scorpions, Bombard Cannon
  • Techs: Lacking Siege Ram-, Siege Onager- and Heavy Scorpion Upgrades

Monastery
Lacking Herbal Medicine and Faith

Black Smith
Lacking Bracer and potentially Ring Archer Armor

University
Lacking Bombard Tower, Keep, Fortified Wall, Treadmill Crane.

Dock

  • Units: Galleon, Fast fire Ship, Heavy Demolition Ship, Cannon Galleon
  • Techs: Lack (Elite) Cannon Galleon

Eco Upgrades
Lacking Stone Shaft Mining, Two-Man Saw, Banking, Guilds

In terms of utility of this campaign players, the Avares could be featured in a Campaign where they conquer the Pannonian basin, establishing their realm and knocking at the door of the byzantine empire as they sieged Constantinople (spoiler: but never succeeded which could be e.g. the last mission of that campaign).
Moreover, for the African-based civilization there were local conflicts between a variety of different kingdoms seeking for power., e.g. The Beninese under King Agaja were fighting the Oyo Empire for over a decade. Lastly, for the Italian-based civilizations the current Sforza campaign could be re-edited but also ideas can include the conflicts between the Republics, Venetians vs. Milanese or the Genoese in conflict in the 11/12th century with Arabic contestants who settled in the Iberian peninsula seeking to dominate the western Mediterranean sea. There were also battles between the French and Italian Republics in 16th century.

With all this presented here, I am happy to get any feedback, can elaborate some of my thoughts if requested and of course I hope that some of our/community-based ideas get picked up by developer team and thus may translate into incorporation of the game because I would be lying if I say otherwise.

Best.

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I appreciate the effort, but the game is called Age of EMPIRES 2, not Age of Italian City states.

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First thanks. I see what you are trying to say but I really have to say that this not really a good argument. I stated that this was an idea based on previous splitting of existing civilizations . You can also say this is age of empires and not age of Chinese or Hindustani civilization.

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Venetians were already added with mountain royals (Armenians).

The problem is that they are the same people. When the Lombards arrived in Italy (568), they found a Roman people, certainly exhausted and tired from various vicissitudes (not least the plague). They did not find many Italic peoples happy to rebel against Rome. The coronation of Charlemagne (800), seen as Roman and Christian is also symbolic. So much so that it only makes sense to speak of Italians from the 11th and 12th centuries onwards.

On the other hand, the Chinese or the Indians have never been one people. It is not really a comparison that makes sense.

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The Concept of civilization in the game has been stretch enough to include minor kingdoms such as Burgundy and Siciliy, so don’t discard any european split.

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When you think about it, the Holy Roman Empire is so perfectly represented

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It’s missing the dutch.

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I get your point. But what do you say then about romans and Italians? They are the same people just different time. As Akleoni said, there have been some stretches in terms of civilization and I just stated there is potential for civilizations as these republics were not just mere cities but acted on a larger scale/level. I never claimed they are not the same people just simply bringing ideas to the tabel.

Also the Moravians if I am not mistaken.

The Romans in the game represent the ancient Romans, practically at the time of the Huns. They had a very different style and social organisation from the Italians.

If we want to go down that road, then the Teutons should also be divided into the various German souls, but it doesn’t seem very interesting to me here when there are whole populations not yet explored.

However, if you want to take this as a cue to refine your proposal, you should include the Carroccio as a regional unit.

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As far as I know there was no political unity in Italy until very recently (if there is today) and no cultural identity at least from the late middle ages (Dante and Italians as a Florentine offshot in language against the “rude Romans”, then the Vatican). The Italian national anthem still contains some lines addressing Italy as “slave of Rome” but in antiquity there was no Italy, rather many different tribes and Celts in the north. That’s also why it’s simply wrong when I read people here saying Romans are Italians (in this timeframe!) and Sicilians or other claims confounding geography with ethnic or political identity.
Philosophically Germanic medieval nationalism (romanticism) was born in reaction against ancient Roman universalism (enlightenment) but this is indeed a 1700/800 thing.

Italy like all modern nations is a product of nationalism (which is not in itself a bad thing, just trying to adhere to facts), national identities formed towards the end of the middle ages and all modern nations were formed by the end of the modern era (last being Italy and Germany).
Italy was simply a geographical expression in antiquity and early to high middle ages, as you said there was a mix of Lombards and Italo-Romans but also greco-byzantines and later Normans/Arabs in the south. It’s really not a case that the Italian civ in game refers basically only to the late middle ages as there wasn’t anything Italian about Lombards, the exarchate of Ravenna, the kingdom of Sicily or the late Roman people.
As soon as in the crisis of the third century (which historians are seeing more and more as the real demarcation point between antiquity and the middle ages) Roman identity started to shatter and “Romans” who were granted citizenship by Caracalla went back to their regional preroman tribal identity which for example in Gaul was Averni, Senoni etc. Then Thracia, Illyria, Punic etc. In Italy the Etruscan language was already extinct but that didn’t stop Etruria/Tuscia to form its own Lombard duchy at the end of the 6th century, meaning that there was a regression/progression (depending on your ideology) to a disunited identity in Italy. In history books the Lombard invasion (568) is still used to mark the beginning of the dark ages locally because it broke the political unity granted by Romans that would last till 1861.

Maybe you simply want to play as Italians in this game cause you feel Italian and that’s ok though it’s not true that Italians could not be split based on the fact they were a nation, you could use many other arguments though, like the most common one which is that Europe is full.
I mean Italy is a big mess even today in terms of identity, nobody likes each other and this just goes back to the historical pre and post Roman division in duchies, external invasions and dialects that the Italians always experienced. If you ask me Italy doesn’t even make much sense as a national country but that’s my opinion and it’s not relevant here.

Ghanaians and Beninese (based on Ashantis and Dahomeans) are very late bloomers, OP. They are from 1700s and aoe2 goes up to 1600 at most. I know of more suitable options if you are interested.

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Yes I am Italian, and Italy is a mess. But identiary fragmentation does not come from the Lombards. Or rather, not directly. The rivalry within the culture of italy concerns the period of the Italy of the Communes (1100-1350).
When after the defenitive end of the Lombard League (1250), which had the characteristics of a federal state, each individual municipality (then Signoria or State) increasingly thought of its own local interests. Not that it didn’t happen before. But there was a spirit nonetheless of common interest against the foreigner.

All this not to mention that huge topic that is the struggles between Guelphs and Ghibellines: between those who supported the pope and those who supported the emperor. Again a civil war of Italians against other Italians.

Campanilism in Italy comes from here, from the 12th century. Which is the very long effect of the political fragmentation that began in 778.

We have already discussed this, the Lombards replaced the ancient Roman aristocracy, and they do what people usually do in such a position: they fight for power. But the Lombards were not inclined to teach the subjugated Romans how to fight or of improving relations. It is known that they alone retained the right to bear the sword. So much so that an entire social class, the “Arimanni,” arose (although it is believed that the Lombards had it even before they arrived in italy). That is, warriors set aside in stable garrisons and directly dependent on the king. For sustenance they had land, granted to them hereditarily.

There is no local spirit or identity. If you fought, you did it because you were ordered to. Not for anything else. Which then is why the Romans in Italy for 200 years are almost completely irrelevant. They did the menial jobs, serving their Lombard lord.

True, but I will tell you more. Until about modern times, the reign of the Lombards in Italy was seen as the lowest point in the history of Italy. To quote you a judgment from the mid-1800s:

“Let’s face it: to Italy, perhaps by an obscure law of counterpoise, ultimately fell the least intelligent and coarsest barbarians in Europe. Totally incapable of merging with the vanquished people, pig breeders and frenzied hunters, totally incapable of productive work, crude people without ideality, without poetry, without laws, without wealth, without a homeland (they were at each other’s throats, constantly betraying each other), they were for Italy a real curse. They marked the unhappiest century in our history.”

It is victory that is the slave of Rome, not Italy. The subject is important.

I agree in part. That was the ko punch definitely but Lombards already fragmented Italy quite a lot.

Yes though eventually from those divisions local identities (Friuli from forum Juli under the Lombards, Spoleto, Benevento, the Norman and byzantine south etc) formed, just not immediately of course. At the times of Lombards, Italo-Romans were basically held captive by the Germanic masters but they didn’t consider the Byzantines Romans neither, in fact they rebelled a lot towards the final decades of the exarchate.
Local dialects were formed from late Latin instead of a whole Italian national language and this is an indicator of fragmentation. Iirc it was Dante who started to promote Florentine (vulgar) as “Italian” in opposition to Latin but that didn’t materialise until the 1800s (probably because of the pope in Rome too).
That’s only to say there is a clash between an imperial universal identity (the Romans before, the Byzantines and then the pope) and a national dimension that went through local Germanic assimilation. In-between this passage I see the typical Italian regionalism.

Oh really? Lol well I’m still not sure if Italian nationalism claimed a descent from Rome but it feels to me very counterintuitive if it did because imperial Rome was anything but a nation, although arguably republican Rome would have made sense I guess.

But you are right. The invasion of the Lombards is seen as the point of no return. It’s just that they triggered a butterfly effect in which effects lasted for so many centuries.

Dante in the 1300s identifies 14 dialects. If you’re curious about the judgment-he’s not kind to anybody let’s say. That Italy was deeply divided there is no doubt. But if I may quote my Latin professor, “do you really think Cicero was talking like that while he was going to buy fish?”. This is to say that a spoken and even somewhat local or dialectal Latin has always existed. We don’t have as much written evidence of it of course, but that’s what the various Italian vernaculars derive from.

It didn’t quite work out that way. The history of the Italian language is also strange.

If you could ask Dante (1265-1321) what language he wrote the Divine Comedy in, he would tell you that he wrote it in Italian. Is that true? More or less. Dante reinvented much of the language, giving new meaning to words or taking “loanwords” from other languages. Not to mention that some characters speak directly in Latin. To the point you can say that the Comedy is multilingual. But the Commedy was a huge success. You could call it the first best seller in Italian literature.

However, the success of the Florentine vernacular depends on two of his countrymen and contemporaries: Boccaccio (1313-1375) and Petrarch (1304-1374). Who did not boast that they wrote in Italian but only in Vulgar Florentine. Nevertheless they hit the mark, to the point that they were taken as a model to be copied. The work of Cardinal Pietro Bembo (1470-1547) is important in this regard.

So what happens is that other poets from other parts of Italy also move to Florence to learn Florentine, because they want to write something that will appeal to all of Italy and not just their region. So this literary Florentine (that used by poets, writers etc.) will later become Italian. In fact, Italian and Florentine today are not the same thing.

That then after the unification of Italy, there were few who could speak or write in Italian is a different story for another day.

If I can try to translate it. So basically says at the beginning that Italy has woken up and has put on the helmet of Scipio Africanus (who defeated Hannibal), and that the Goddess Victory must cut her hair and give it so that Italy can be victorious again as in the days of Rome. This is because in the time of the ancient Romans, slaves cut their hair as a sign of submission.

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Im fine itth getting Italian split… After we get a Maya split (and a Malay and Dravidian split wayy before those two)

The Maya are just as diverse and rich and well recorded as Italians, and from a much less represented region of the globe.

Basically, its fine to get Italian split after the world gets its fair share of representation. That hasnt yet happened. Theress many nations that are completely unrepresented and deserve a place in the game, and theres a lot of umbrellas just as large if not way larger than Italy

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You don’t even need to “split” Mayans to fill the place up with Mexican Empires

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Oh absolutely, but the Mayans are a third of Mesoamerica and incredibly diverse

You can easily have a Yucatec and a Lowland Maya civ at the very least

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No sure vulgar Latin was a thing already in the late republic in all lands conquered by Rome, official Latin was always something very elite. Still an Hispanic Roman could understand a Gallic or Italian one as late as the 8th century ad meaning those languages were still similar enough to Latin. That’s also where I’d put the disappearance of a western Roman identity, then languages started to diverge too much.

Thanks for explaining the Dante, Petrarca and Boccaccio thing, my knowledge of late medieval Italy is in the realm of “more or less” but I think we can say that Italy was “created” as a political entity (at least if we think an unified language as essential to be a nation) towards the 13th/14th century in Florence (then yeah official Italian is one thing while Florentine kept its local dialect). Italians in aoe2 are indeed a very late civ (another reason why you would want Romans in the dark ages if there were more campaigns set there), almost like if you had French instead of Franks since France really came together as a country only by the time of Joan of arc, that’s when a french national sentiment was born.

You won’t ever hear me complain about that.
And I don’t really think splitting Italians is a priority (at least to me), it’s just that since I saw the thread I simply wanted to remember that there wasn’t an Italian nation or unified political entity before 1861. To avoid splitting them you could rationalize it by saying they represent the people from Italy in a geographical rather than cultural sense and that’s it.
The only civ that feels a shame to not have because of Italians existing is Venetians but if Sicilians exist along with Italians maybe you could simply add Venetians (who weren’t always considered part of Italy, not even in 1861 because there were still Austrians there, in fact some historians say Italy was really unified only at the end of the first world war when it gained Veneto) at a certain point.

Please, I like to talk about these things.

Look, in this sense, Italian historiography has wondered why a unification process did not start in the 15th century, during the the early renaissance. Not in the sense of a nation as we understand it today, but at least a unitary kingdom as in other parts of Europe. For example, there is the Council of Constance (1418 - 1418) where the participants voted by ‘nation’ (whatever such a thing means): England, France, Germany and Italy. The Poles, Hungarians, Danes and Scandinavians counted with the Germans.

The reality is that no ancient Italian state proved strong enough to conquer the others, not to mention that the papal state cutting the peninsula in two was a huge problem. And since no one wanted to give up some of their power, it would have to wait until the 19th century.

Well, in Italy, the First World War is considered the Fourth War of Independence. But the Veneto and Venice were freed from Austro-Hungarian rule during the Third War of Independence. Napoleon had destroyed what was left of the Venetian Republic (1797), but after he was defeated, there was the era of the Restoration. So the Austrians thought it best to create the Kingdom of Lombardy-Venetia (1815-1866) and thus control northern Italy where strange ideas, daughters of the French Revolution, circulated.

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