Civilization Idea: Mississippians

The Mississippians are a civ concept that I came up with on the wiki years ago, as part of a pre-DE North American-focused expansion concept, but those old Mississippians frankly sucked. I entirely remade them from the ground up in my more modern style recently.

They represent the mound-building peoples of the same name present mainly throughout the Mississippi River Valley until the 14th century, when they began to decline. However, they could also broadly represent all similar cultures, referred to collectively by historians as the Mound Builders, due to their common trait of building platform mounds. They have a new North American architecture set either shared with the Iroquois or entirely unique. Their Wonder is Monks Mound, the largest of all Mississippian mounds.

The Mississippians are a monk and defensive civilization, with strong infantry, archers, and economic techs to allow them to carry out just about any strategy, similar to the Byzantines and Incas. However, they have a fairly weak navy, and their siege is average.

Talking about the concept now:

Civilization Bonuses

  • Town Centers, towers, Monasteries, and first Castle spawn on hills when completed

This is an unusual bonus, so let me explain. Basically, the buildings mentioned will be on flat ground during construction, but once they are finished, hills that are the same size as the building will spawn beneath them, and they will always be 1 elevation level higher than the ground the building normally sits on. The exceptions are if the surrounding ground is already the max elevation or if the buildings are built on amphibious terrain, which doesn’t support elevation.

This bonus references the mounds that the Mississippians are famous for, which typically supported residential structures, temples, and other types of buildings, including defensive structures.

  • Economic technologies can be researched again in the next age for half cost and 100% faster

I explained a bit about this bonus in a recent thread, so that might help.

While I included the bonus due to its unique nature, it also represents the vast Mississippian farming economy that freed up other types of workers to engage in craft specialization. The Mississippian economy in general was very large and supported a large population, and this bonus allowing for a strong economy matches that.

  • Monks take -33% bonus damage

Mississippian religion was notably similar to that of Aztec society, involving a great deal of human sacrifice. Such ceremonies often involved dozens of victims slaughtered simultaneously. This level of bloodlust and religious zeal demonstrated by priests involved in such rituals was unmatched by the majority of clergy around the world.

  • Eagles heal 5 HP per minute for every Monastery built (limit of 5)

Due to religion being such an important part of Mississippian society, it is easy to imagine their warriors being strongly motivated by it. Similar to the previously-mentioned Aztec culture, the gathering of human sacrifices would have no doubt been a significant ordeal that gave warriors increased morale and drive that they might otherwise lack. Since there were so many mounds built for religious purposes, the Mississippian people were constantly reminded of their goals, which drove them to succeed in battle.

  • Team bonus: Walls and gates built 50% faster

This bonus references the thick walls built around Mississippian cities, which were either wooden palisades or earthen walls; they had no stone buildings of any kind.

Unique Unit: Cahokia Knifeman

  • This is a unit somewhat comparable to the Swordsman line, but slightly cheaper, at 50 food and 20 gold (slightly more expensive if you have Supplies), and slightly weaker, at 50 HP instead of 60 (though the Elite version has 60 HP), with the same pierce armor, but no melee armor. However, it moves faster than the Swordsman line, at 1.1 instead of 0.9, and attacks faster, with 1.8 instead of 2 (the Elite version is 1.7). Its attack is also weaker than the Long Swordsman, with 7 instead of 9 (the Elite version has 9 attack). Its attack can be further improved through the Imperial Age UT, so its low value isn’t as much of a concern. The unit is trained in 12 seconds.

  • The unit’s main gimmick is that it attacks in a broad swiping motion, dealing full trample damage roughly along that arc in front and to the sides. This makes it very good when massed and in close quarters, getting several times its value in damage under ideal conditions. However, it is especially susceptible to ranged units, so sending in Eagles as a meat shield while the unit gets close to melee targets is a sound tactic.

  • Little information is available about Mississippian weaponry, but aside from their usage of bows, what we do know is that they made knives with long, pointed blades out of a type of stone called chert. Some of these knives may have been produced for ceremonial purposes, but they would’ve been useful as weapons of war either way. Knives allow for quick swiping cuts that would be more difficult to perform with heavier blades, due to their low weight and easy handling.

Unique Technologies
Platform Mounds: Buildings deal +50% damage from higher elevation

  • Cost: 300 wood, 300 gold

  • This technology synergizes well with the bonus causing defensive structures to spawn on hills, making it apply even on totally flat maps like Arena. Since the first Castle, the one that will likely research the technology, automatically spawns on a hill, it gains extra damage after this tech even compared to the normal hill bonus. It also applies to towers and Town Centers as well, making the Mississippian player harder to attack. However, keep in mind that the tech is strictly an attack boost, just like the Tatar bonus, so it does not apply to damage taken, only damage dealt.

  • Platform mounds were half-pyramid-shaped dirt mounds, usually with buildings on top. Wooden staircases would be added to one side to allow access, causing them to massively resemble Mesoamerican temples. While other cultures did build platform mounds, they were most famously utilized by the Mound Builders, especially the Mississippians. North American platform mounds typically housed temples, mortuaries, chiefs’ houses, dance platforms, and other structures that may or may not have included defensive buildings.

Copperworking: Archer line and Eagles +3 attack vs siege and cavalry; Cahokia Knifemen +2 attack

  • Cost: 600 food, 400 gold

  • This technology makes archers much more resilient against their main counters, and Eagles gain greater utility as well. Because of this technology, Eagles can perform a much better anti-cavalry role, so Halberdiers are not available.

  • Elite Cahokia Knifemen also become much stronger with this tech than without it, as they end with 15 attack with the tech and 13 without, assuming all the other upgrades are researched. That’s still 2 less attack than fully upgraded Champions, but is much closer to closing the gap stats-wise. It’s 15 attack to multiple adjacent units, not accounting for armor, so it can actually be a rather strong unit in the late game, assuming it can get up close.

  • The Mississippian culture was actually quite famous for copperworking, and not only did it use copper for arrow heads, knives, and maybe even spear tips, but it also developed a process of annealing copper to make it more easily malleable, similar to how blacksmiths handle iron. While this process was useless for making weapons, since it made the copper weaker, it was used for the iconic copper plates that the culture is known for, as well as other token items.

Tech Tree

Missing Units: Halberdier, Elephant Archer line, Cavalry Archer line, Hand Cannoneer, whole Stable, Siege Onager, Bombard Cannon, Fast Fire Ship, Heavy Demolition Ship, Cannon Galleon, Dromon.

Missing Techs: Parthian Tactics, whole Stable, Barding techs, Bombard Tower, Siege Engineers, Crop Rotation, Two-Man Saw, Gold Shaft Mining, Stone Shaft Mining, Dry Dock, Shipwright.

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@Szaladon I hope you like my rendition of this civ.

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Interesting idea.

Will placing the buildings that have the bonus actually change topography, or will they simply get the uphill bonus no matter their position relative to enemy units ?

Quick one, are they supposed to have access to the Dromon?

It will actually change the environment once the buildings are complete.

No. Good catch.

Provided you have a lot of wood to burn with monasteries, it has some potential to make your town slightly more fortified

Are you saying that because it would add hills to the walls? I’m not sure how adding Monasteries would help aside from causing Eagles to heal more.

Build monasteries then delete them to make elevation for the walls (built after deleting monasteries) and units behind walls.

Yes a lot of trouble but maybe if you have time on Black Forest…

Oh…darn.

I originally made it so that the special elevation would vanish if the building that made it was destroyed. That was because houses were part of the bonus and I was preventing cheesing. Looks like I’ll have to do that again.

It’s far too situational in practice to be a real issue, in what % of games would players bother with that ?

But these building always having the uphill bonus without changing the terrain would fix that.

An important historic correction, with the Mississippian, there were only a handful know instances of human sacrifice. It did happen, very rarely. Only Mound 72 of Cahokia has clear evidence of mass human sacrifice.
Also strontium analysis on the teeth showed that they were mostly local people. So sacrifice would not have been a big motivation to go to war for the Mississippians.
So I think it is bad to make that a big focus of a civ design on something that most likely only happend once, in one city.

Beside that, I would love to see the Mississippian sometime in game. The more I learn about them, the more I feel like they deserve a spot in AoE II.
(If you want you can have a look at the sources I have used in my Mississippian design)

That was mostly just me making stuff up. It was late at night and I was having difficulty expressing my historical justification, so I just pulled stuff out of thin air.

IMP UT kinda broken no? FU Arbs with +3 vs Cavalry and Siege. How to counter that?

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It actually is possible to have elevation on amphibious terrain. Several custom rms scripts have elevation changes on water (Gitchee Gumee, Whirlpool Lake, Water Wars, etc.). And max elevation is complicated (in an rms script, there are two ways to add elevation, and they have different maxes).

Probably don’t need the discount (in both research time and cost) for this to be strong. Would the next-age version be required before moving onto the next tech (which from the looks of it, would be heavy plow, bow saw, and hand cart)?

I suspect the only place where this is likely to be too strong is with the woodcutting techs (becomes better than Celts, even before factoring in the extra wheelbarrow/handcart- think you’d need to get rid of Bow Saw to balance that out). Farming would benefit, as they’d have a higher max capacity and the extra wheelbarrow/hand cart (and extra +1 carry capacity from heavy plow), which would cause the civ’s farmers to hit max farming rate more easily. But farming wouldn’t be broken because of the farm’s internal gather rate. Gillnets might also be an issue (fish traps are already faster than farming once you have gill nets, and this would make it even stronger, but only in imperial age). I suspect it wouldn’t be too big of an issue though. And a second Caravan might be broken (might need to be excluded, and even if not, it would ideally be +.5 speed rather than 1.5X speed to reduce impact).

So balance-wise, I think that this would also require the removal of Bow Saw (to keep their wood-cutting from becoming broken) and maybe Caravan. Otherwise, you’ve already removed the normal last-level eco techs (excluding hand cart, which doesn’t need removal). Still is a strong eco bonus that would give a superb economy (even with all of the missing eco techs).

Similar to how you counter Genoese Crossbows. Skirms would do great. Cavalry (if they get close) will clean them up. Mangonels can still deal a lot of damage (but would die quickly, so this would be risky). anti-archer infantry and archers would have no problem dealing with them though. It likely would be OP in some matchups (like against Franks), but wouldn’t be very helpful in others

Yes. How it works, for example with the Lumber Camp techs, is that it goes Double-Bit Axe → Double-Bit Axe → Bow Saw → Bow Saw.

Nah, I can just remove all Market techs from the effect, without removing them from the tech tree. But wouldn’t removing Bow Saw just make Mississippian lumberjacks inferior to even generic lumberjacks?

It does (at least before factoring in travel time). The woodcutting upgrades multiply gather rate by 1.2X, 1.2X, and 1.1X. So removing bow saw means that they’d be equal to a generic civ missing the last lumber tech. If they had bow saw, they’d effectively have a 1.2^4 = 2.0736X multiplier. For comparison, Celts get a 1.656X multiplier, generic is 1.584X multiplier, and missing two-man saw is 1.44X multiplier (which is what the bonus would provide with just DBA). The Mississippians would have the advantage of needing to pay less for their second lumber tech (since they’re paying the price of an earlier eco tech). And they’d also benefit from getting wheelbarrow and handcart twice (which would mean less travel time, which makes the benefits of the eco techs less than their actual multipliers).

Also, the effects of wheelbarrow/hand cart on carry capacity are multiplicative, which I believe would put the total carry capacity at somewhere around 36 (high enough to only require 2 trips for reeds and 3 trips for normal trees). So the woodcutters wouldn’t need as many trips per tree. I don’t know how that would affect things in practice - could be that they’d end up better than generic in practice (and certainly will be for players who forget to refresh their lumber camps). I will note that my calculations suggest that a generic FU villager should have a carry capacity of 19, but I believe it actually is 20 in-game (I suspect as a result of rounding). So redoing the calculations with rounding, I get 10 → 13 → 17 → 26 → 39 carry capacity.

So # of trips for various tree amounts (generic FU versus double WB/HC)
50 wood (Reeds): 3 → 2
100 wood (tree): 5 → 3
150 wood (acacia): 8 → 4
200 wood (baobab): 10 → 6

After doing these calculations, I think double WB/HC will have a significant impact on actual wood gather rates.

TLDR: removing Bow saw would make the lumberjack gather rate equal to generic missing Two-man saw, but double wheelbarrow/hand cart would almost halve the number of trips/tree due to significantly increased carry capacity.

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Thanks for crunching the numbers. I’m terrible at math, so I’d never be able to figure this stuff out myself.

I bet we can use the Scenario Editor to test things for sure. There’s a way to make techs repeatable.

Btw, what arch set would they use? Would they get a new one or would you force them into the Mesoamerican set?

I explained that in the post:

However, due to their superficial resemblance to Mesoamerican cultures, if they were a real civ, they’d probably have the Mesoamerican architecture, which is subpar, but better than not having them.

Thanks for the explanation. I understood it though. Not sure if Genie engine can handle this. An easy way would be giving them the simple hill bonus. +25% damage dealt, -25% damage taken. This will result in almost same. Only difference is in this way your units on the same spot won’t have the hill bonus.