- their wonder is the Brussels city hall.
Overall Burgundians can be extended to cover all of Lotharingia. There is a lot to say about that tech but its problem isn’t not fitting the civ.
3 Likes
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Janissary: 50 HP, 65% accuracy; Elite Janissary: 60 HP, 75% accuracy.
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No more food decay from dead animals.
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For consistency and aesthetics, all cannon projectiles should move at the same speed. 4.5 could be a sweet spot, especially benefiting cannon towers’ extremely slow projectiles.
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Bombard towers should deal melee damage for consistency. To balance this, rams should gain some resistance against them.
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Allowing ranged units to shoot from the tops of walls would be a great addition. Siege towers could also transport infantry onto enemy walls.
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Making the Man-at-Arms upgrade free and automatic upon reaching the Feudal Age: I had suggested this before the last patch announcement. Since infantry has been buffed, I no longer have a strong opinion on it, but it could still be considered.
If AoE2 has the timeframe 500AD to 1500AD then:
In 402 Stilicho pulled back all Roman forces. To defend Italy against the Goths.
The Ripuarian Franks stayed. But were defeated in 406 by the Huns, Suebians, Alans, Alemanni and Burgundii tribes. They crossed the Rhine and all moved south into France.
Then we went from Gallo-Roman into more Germanic. Which was a cultural transition.
The Frisians lived along the coast. From Belgium to Germany. And for the game can culturally be seen as Vikings.
In the east lived the germanic tribee the Saxons.
In the south lived the Merovingian Franks.
We were divided as many tribes. And not a country of a single people as today. We can still see these cultural differences today.
Around 500 Clovis united all the Franks. And in 700 to 800 Charlemagne subdued the Frisians and Saxons. So the early times we were usurped by the Franks. Hence why they have the unique unit Throwing Axeman.
From 500 and onwards the Frisians were more an economic powerhouse because they were in the center between all the tribes.Inbetween germans, franks, anglos and nordics. They traded with and raided everyone (i only learned this recently but the Frisians were also raiders who ‘went a viking’).
In 843 after Charlemagnes death the Treaty of Verdun split the ‘Frankish Roman Empire’ into Eastern Francia, Middle Francia and West Francia. Here the Netherlands are inside Middle Francia. After that Middle Francia was divided and split. In 870 with the treaty of Meerssen it was decided that the northern part of Middle Francia would be divided between West Francia and Eastern Francia. The river ‘Schelde’ would be the border, this is the river between Antwerp and the Northsea. Hence the todays border between Belgium and Netherlands.
From 870 the todays ‘Netherland’ was added to the Holy Roman Empire. And todays ‘Belgium’ was added to the Frankish (French) Empire. And Burgundy envelops only the Lower and Upper Lotharingia which is todays Swiss and the French province of Provence. So from Geneve to Marseille.
From then on the actual power of Frisia was for the Frisians themselves. And the Vikings saw their chance and involved themselves. In 826 Frisia (todays Netherlands from ‘Zeeland region’ to todays Groningen’ became a part of the Danish Kingdom and was ruled by King Harald and Rorik. Even the city of Kampen got cityrights under the Danish crown, so originally it was aligned with Denmark.
The local counts inland mostly resisted Danelaw and thus the local counts were able to usurp power. And the Frisians themselves never did Feudalism, they were granted Charlespriviledge by Charlemagne, concerning the northern coastal areas who were independent. This was confirmed by Wilhelm II (king of Holland) in 1248 and in 1417 by HRE-emperor Sigismund.
The other areas in the Netherlands also gained freedomrights under the HRE-crown and Danish-crown. They were priviledged. Mostly because the locals never listened to their lords and thus the royalty couldn’t usurp power over them. Also because they had fortified cities on dykes that were unreachable and easily to defend.
Between 925 and 1350 in these regions there were ‘Landsheren’ (territorial landlords) that grew into power. They were considered independent sovereigns inside the HRE (HolyRomanEmpire). Some were dukes, counts or bishop-princes.
When they became part of Eastern Francia it was divided into duchies and there were mostly Saxon royals from germany placed as dukes.For the german dukes Aachen was the capital of this area. Meanwhile the local landlords (dukes and counts) (Holland, Vlaanderen, Limburg, Brabant etc) were all tieing with the german count for power over this region. The german counts also installed prince-bishoprys with religious power and to christianise the regions mostly fighting minorities like the frisian pagans in the north. Those prince-bishoprys were for example Liege and Utrecht.
But basically the title “Duc of Lorraine / Duche de Lothier” was a title without power.
In the 4th century the Bishop of Liege was granted power. And was able to always stay independent. No external force or royalty was able to take over power. Thus this always stayed part of the Holy Roman Empire.
Only in 1795 was its govern annexed by the kingdom of France.
In 1122 the treaty/concordat of Worms happened. The german crown of the HRE had no say over the bishops anymore to appoint religious offices. Thus the power of the german crown was reduced. Giving more way for the local dukes and counts to gain more power in ‘the netherlands’. Because the local lords could take more power they considered ‘potestas publica’ their responsiblity, to take care of the people. In this time also the viking raids stopped. And thus came stability for this region.
Then the countys, bishoprys and freecities started growing in population and expanding. Fortified cities became strongohlds for the counts who grew in power over the bishoprys. And thus reducing the feudal system. The biggest of all was the County of Flanders (city of Brugge). And after them Brabant grew with the city of Antwerp.
In the following centuries the Hanseatic league cities of the County of Gelre grew mostly in power. And contested with Bishopry of Utrecht. And the County of Holland+Zeeland were inbetween the others, but were mostly just free cities with international trade. Only in 1586 did Holland grew in power and there we enter Age of Empires 3.
In the 7th century the Bishop of Utrecht was given power by the german crown of East Francia and was allmighty. But through the centuries the prince-bishop kept losing territorial power to the Count of Holland and Count of Gelre. Only in 1528 was the powr of the Bishop moved to Charles V the Holy Roman Empire and King of Spain. Thus starting the 80 years of war with Spain which is part of Age of Empires 3.
In 1384 the Count of Flanders passed away. Then there was an arranged mariage between Margaret III and the duke of Burgundy Philip the bold. From then on the Burgundians gained more and more power through buying land and arranging more marriages and the Burgundians and Hapsburgers ruled todays Belgium from 1385 until 1555.
The Burgundians tried to use their title as a claim over “the Lotharingias” to usurp the old Middle Francia. Which they partially succeeded.
So from 500 to 1385, that is about 900 years there was no Burgundian rule in the southern Netherlands. From 1385 to 1555 there was, and only small parts of the northern Netherlands. And even then that is only 200 years until they revolted.
The ‘Flemish Revolt’ of Ghent happened from 1449 to 1453.
So the Netherlands aren’t Burgundian. And the Burgundians only had power for the last 200 years of the Age of Empires 2 time frame.
Honestly i would prefer there to be a Frisian civilization. Or with another name like Upper Lotharingia.
As in dutch history we always consider the involved royalty in our history a foreign entity. As this happened a lot in our history.
As conclusion i could say concerning current civlizations in the game you could consider us Franks, then Vikings, after that Teutons and as last partly Burgundians. But surely the Burgundians were usurpers. The flemish revolution is like giving Britons Jean d’Arc… which is weird as ****.
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I actually designed one here on the forum! You may want to check it out.
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It would be nice to have more variations of music during missions.
It occurs to me it’d be nice to not be lied to when future DLCs are teased. Really like to see the devs get around to that one.
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There are a lot of good ideas in the first post. The game has prospects for long-term support both in terms of the Middle Ages and DLC in the Chronicles subseries. Carthage in Chronicles later this year and Americas as DLC for the Middle Ages and Rus as a paid or free Slavs rework with its own campaign in spring 2026 would be good additions at the moment.
Still awaiting for the mounted samurai to get a proper skin.
Indian civis still need correct trade cart king merchant and sails as well.
1 Like