Concepts for new eagle civs

Hello everyone.

In this topic, I want to share the new gameplay style concepts for Eagle civs.

I try to develop 3 different new styles. For helping these 3 concepts be imagined more easily, I chose Purepecha, Chimu, and Muisca as references to bring into them, making them more like a more complete concept of potential civs.

Suggestions are welcomed. I won’t really insist on the other parts of civ concepts as long as the new gameplay styles can be kept and developped. For example, maybe you would think the style I applied to Purepecha is more suitable for the Chimu in history accuracy if my consideration or research is not sufficient.

Additionally, there are also some ideas for the existing Native American civs. The most significant change is the renaming of Eagle units. Absolutely they are definitely not necessary for the original intention of sharing the ideas about new styles, and I may not be rigorous enough about the balance changes they could bring, so feel free to ignore these changes if you don’t like them. They are just to make the things more like a concept of a Native American DLC that some people may be interested.

let’s get started.

Changes for the existing

Summary

Common:

  • Scout InfantryLight InfantryShock Infantry
    Rename the current Eagle line units and give them new skins, making them a little more generic to apply to non-Aztec as well as non-American civs like Bantu Africans.

  • Remake the Slinger
    Becomes a trash regional unit of pre-Columbian American civs.
    Cheap and easy to gather (cost 25 food and 25 wood for example). Has only 30 HP, 2 basic attack, and +5 attack against infantry.
    Maybe affected by Atlatl and Hul’che Javelineers.

Incas:

  • Slinger can uniquely be upgraded to Waraka Slinger.
    Basically an elite upgrade, named after the Waraka (or Huaraka), the type of sling used by the Incas.

  • Chasqui
    An Scout Infantry-type unique unit, trainable in Barracks in the Dark Age and automatically upgraded to Scout Infantry when hitting the Feudal Age.
    Has 7 LoS, 5 attack and 40 HP. (For reference, Scout Infantry in the Dark Age has 5 LoS, 4 attack and 50 HP.)
    The game is started with 1 Chasqui instead of 1 Scout Infantry.

Aztecs:

  • Eagle Warrior and Elite Eagle Warrior
    The Aztecs could have them as unique upgrades that replace the Light Infantry and Shock Infantry. The new Eagle Warrior might have +5 HP than the Light Infantry, and the new Elite Eagle Warrior might have +10 HP and +1 pierce armor than the Shock Infantry.

  • Butterfly Warrior and Elite Butterfly Warrior
    A unique upgrade that replaces the Long Swordsman (and the Elite replaces the Two-Handed Swordsman and Champion).
    With lower base attack but a attack bonus against cavalry. Although the bonus is lower than the Spearman line, it would be better able to face a variety of situations.
    The papalotl (lit. ‘butterfly’) warriors were the third type of elite warrior to feature an explicitly animal theme. Being a member of papalotl warriors means he had taken three captives and he could be promoted to a jaguar warrior when captured the fourth.

  • Jaguar Warrior adjustment
    Costs +5 food.
    Runs as fast as Eagle Warrior.
    Inspired by AoE3 Jaguar Prowl Knights, receives +5 HP and +1 attack when killed an enemy unit, up to 2 times (+1 time respectively by the Elite upgrade and the Garland Wars, so totally up to 4 times).

Mayans:

  • Rename El Dorado to something like Quilted Cotton Armor or any other suitable term.

Style A: Aggressive civ with Trash Light Infantry

Assumed civilization: Purepecha

Summary
  • The Scout Infantry line units moves 10% faster starting from Feudal Age.
    They had defended against Aztec invasion through active border patrols and scouting.

  • The Blacksmith infantry armor upgrades and Gambesons also affects the archer units.
    According to Relacion de Michoacan, the most important weapon for Purepecha warriors seems to have been the bow and arrow. They wore stuffed cotton doublets and breastplate made of tightly woven maguey threads, and were equipped with buckler-size shields made of reeds and bitumen to allow them to use weapons with both hands.

  • Every Dock spawn a shore fish when built, and every Mill spawn a berry bush when built.
    Fishing and gathering in lakes and surrounding wetlands were the economic core of the Purepecha Empire. The name Michoacan likely means “inhabitants of fish-rich places” in the Nahuatl language.

  • [Team] Fishing Ships have +3 LoS.
    This makes it easier for their Fishing Ships to notice fish or enemies on the water.

  • UU: Quangariecha
    A brave using an one-handed macana or club that may be like a sharp bronze axe or an oak club with many sharp copper spikes, and equipping with a shield that may be made of copper alloy.
    It can ignore bonus damage, which makes them more survivable against Hand Cannoneers, Cataphracts, Samurais and Jaguar Warriors.

  • Castle UT: Purepecha Martial Art
    Militia line units can kill enemy units that have lass than 20% HP with one strike; Infantry units have +50% bonus attacks.
    A Purepecha martial art called “thaio thayocarani” was recorded in Relacion de Michoacan. Although there is a lack of more detailed records, what is known is that this martial art emphasizes fighting with kicking.

  • Imperial UT: Messengers
    Turn the gold cost of the Scout Infantry line units into 80% of food.
    The Purepecha Empire was multi-ethnic with a fairly dispersed settlement pattern. People used messengers to contact the scattered tribes and other anti-Aztec allies to gather as more as 40,000 warriors than the 24,000 Aztec warriors. Incidentally, the name of their capital, Tzintzuntzan, is said that means “the place of hummingbird messenger gods.”

  • No Halberdier, Shock Infantry, Padded Archer Armor and Siege Engineers.

  • Gameplay with this civ:
    The Scout Infantry would be good at raiding, and the Archer line has a balanced advantage against archers.
    Use the Quangariecha and Champions to cover your Pikemen and Light Infantry.
    Use trash Light Infantry to raid in late games, especially when against a lot of Monks and siege weapons.

  • Gameplay against this civ:
    Their economy bonus is weak, but they rely heavily on gold until they research the Messengers.
    It can be helpful to prepare skirmishers and protect them with some knights or swordsmen.

  • References:
    https://www.scielo.org.mx/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0188-28722009000100002

Style B: Defensive civ with Cheap Shock Infantry

Assumed civilization: Chimu

Summary
  • Fishing Ships, Transport Ships and Trade Cogs can be trained faster by +50%.
    Cultures along the coast of Peru, such as the Chimu and Chincha, knew how to make good reed rafts. These cultures worshiped the ocean and valued water. The Chimu used reed rafts to fish, while the Chincha used reed rafts to travel across the sea to Central America for trade and to spread metallurgical technology.

  • The attack of Defensive Structures and Warships cannot be affected by the Fletching line upgrades but automatically have +1/+2/+3 in the Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age.
    The Chimu people had built large defensive structures. In the capital Chan Chan, there are ten large, walled enclosures called ciudadela in Spanish.
    Also, it brings one more benefit on water.
    Still need the Fletching line upgrades for improving the range.

  • As long as the title does not change, Villagers gain +1% work efficiency every 2 minutes, up to +8%.
    The majority of the citizens in each ciudadela were artisans. People gathered in such fortified and intensive settlements, engaged in fishing, agriculture, craft work, and trade. Artisans were forbidden to change their profession, and were grouped in the ciudadela according to their area of specialization. In the late Chimu, about 12,000 artisans lived and worked in Chan Chan alone.

  • Villagers and foot archer units provide +100% and +50% DPS to Defensive Structures when garrisoning in since the Castle Age.
    Give more bonuses related to defensive structures to provide a distinctive style.

  • [Team] Palisades, Walls, Gates have +2 LoS.
    Same as above.

  • UU1: Bolas Warrior
    A foot archer unit throwing bolas with bonuses against mounted units rather than infantry units.
    Enemy mounted units hit by bolas will receive +20% bonus damage.

  • UU2: Maceman
    Siege-infantry trainable in Blacksmiths since the Feudal Age, wielding a huge two-handed mace. Slow but powerful, has good bonuses against buildings and siege weapons.
    Benefit from the Forging line upgrades and the infantry armor upgrade.
    With decent melee attack power, obviously less vulnerable to melee units in comparison to Rams, but only has 4 pierce armor (2 in the Feudal Age).

  • Castle UT: Andean Metallurgy
    Infantry cost -30% gold.
    The Andean civilization had the most advanced metallurgical technology in the pre-Columbian Americas. Their technology is thought to have influenced the Purepecha people of Mesoamerica.

  • Imperial UT: Huachaques
    Spawn 5 Llamas at each TC; Turn the wood cost of Farms and Fish Traps into food.
    Huachaques, the sunken farms, included the removal of the top layer of dry earth and allowed farmers to work the moist, sandy soil underneath. The Chimu and Moche cultures used this irrigation method for intensive farming, raising livestock (mainly llamas) and possibly hydrobiological elements.

  • No Halberdier, Thumb Ring, Ring Archer Armor, Crop Rotation and Two-Man Saw.

  • Gameplay with this civ:
    In theory, it will be a strong civ in closed maps and water maps.
    Plan your economic build order carefully to avoid villagers switching tasks repeatedly.
    In late games, food sources have the opportunity to move away from reliance on wood, which should be advantageous for spawning fully upgraded Galleons.

  • Gameplay against this civ:
    If you have a chance to control their stone mines, don’t pass it up.
    The bolas effect can be removed through monk healing or by garrisoning a building.

Style C: Quick upgrades for Fast Castle and Fast Imperial

Assumed civilization: Muisca

Summary
  • The Scout Infantry line upgrades are free (or cost -50% and take -50% longer).
    Muisca’s warriors were chosen from various villages for his merit in attitude and physique rather than by class. Before being assigned as the warrior class Guecha, the men had been trained and matured in combat for many years.

  • Start with an Emerald Mine and each TC spawns an Emerald Mine when built.
    The traditional territory of Muisca is rich in emeralds, not gold. Their signature mass of gold artifacts were sourced from trading the emeralds with other peoples.
    In the game, the Emerald Mine is a special gold mine that looks green and contains about 200 to 350 gold, and the gold from Emerald Mines can be added directly to the stockpile.

  • No transaction fee for buying.
    Muisca people were noted “more traders than fighters”. Through the trade routes, they had bartered in the markets to trade rich emeralds, salt and weaving products in exchanged for marine snail shells, feathers, tropical fruits, cotton, bee wax and gold.
    (By the way, meanwhile an other civ featuring trading, for example the Sogdians, can have no transaction fee for selling.)

  • [Team] Relics generate wood in addition to gold.
    Devout people consumed tobacco, coca, and yopo during religious ceremonies.

  • UU: Guecha Warrior
    A foot archer unit firing darts with a blowpipe or throwing darts for attack, visually using long shields and multiple layers of cotton mantle for defense.
    hand throwing mode: Like the Arambai, attack is great but accuracy is pretty bad.
    Blowpipe mode: The accuracy is greatly improved compared to hand throwing, but the firing speed is much slower.

  • Castle UT: Tejo
    Guecha Warriors (hand throwing) have +10% accuracy; Guecha Warriors (hand throwing), Slingers and skirmisher units fire +20% faster.
    Tejo is a traditional throwing sport in Colombia that is thought to have originated from pre-Columbian Muisca culture rituals relating to Chaquen, the god of sports and fertility. In Colombia it seems to be the most popular sport after soccer.

  • Imperia UT: El Dorado
    Each TC generates 0.5 gold per second; Guecha Warriors and Scout Infantry line units can regeneration.
    The legend of El Dorado is said to start with the ritual that Zipa, the ruler of southern Muisca, offered gold to the gods in the lake.
    The regeneration has reference to the Muisca mummification culture. Muisca people mummified the higher social class members of their society. Devout people placed mummies in caves, mausoleums, temples, or carried them on backs to inspire warriors during battle, which impressed the enemy.

  • No Stone Shaft Mining, Stone Walls, Arbalester and Siege Engineers.

  • Gameplay with this civ:
    Mine emerald and buy food to age up as soon as possible. Going Fast Castle through the first Emerald Mine without building a Mining Camp for gathering gold is an obviously feasible strategy.
    After hitting the Castle Age, you can build a Castle and use Guecha Warriors, or go Light Infantry rush.
    It is also feasible to use Monks in the Imperial Age as they are fully upgraded and there are gold generated at TCs.

  • Gameplay against this civ:
    Watch out for their fast aging, especially if you use an archer civ.
    They have no stone walls and lacks most other defensive upgrades so try to raid them every where. Or, slowly push them with your siege weapons and focus on protecting your siege weapons from Scout Infantry line units and Monks.

8 Likes

I’m buying all three of these civs!

2 Likes

The names sounds good except for the last one. The term “Shock Infantry” or “Shock Troops” is relatively modern, where it first became popular in 20th century and is a calque of the German word “Stoßtrupp” (Stormtrooper), which were specialist infantrymen of the Imperial German Army during WW1.

The name “Shock Infantry” could instead be the replacement name of the current ‘Eagle Warrior’ Armor class.

Alternative names for this unit line can perhaps be:

  • Runner Scout → Quilted Runner → Imperial Runner

It would be great if the Canoe warship, which is an untrainable unit in the game, were to become accessible, where it can replace the Galley line for all or most Native American civilisations and possibly for some African civilisations as well.

For making them as generic as possible, I might probably prefer to simply make the line be Scout Infantry → Light Infantry → Elite Light Infantry, but a good suggestion indeed.

I didn’t consider the canoe. Not against it. I knew it will make sense in history, but in the game such a change might be a very big thing on water balance. And you know, even having the canoe trainable, the entire thing would still be pretty inaccuracy anyway for the Native American civs due to the structure of tech tree of the game if being more picky. For example, it would be an even huger challenge than replacing Galley with Canoe to find replacements for those siege weapons and keep the things balance and simplicity (not too gimmicky). I once considered it, but gave up for now.

Anyway, my focus is mainly on the new styles for the ‘eagle’, so I just decide to put the canoe and siege weapon replacements aside and leave those challenges to someone else.

Honestly why cant we just keep the unit as Eagle? Civs without crossbows have crossbows and steel crossbow upgrades so a little anachronism is fine.

Id really love to see the America civ that works around lacking Elite upgrade

1 Like

I’d go with the classification of “Foot Scout,” Eagle-like units with the same armor class but that have notable differences.

This is an anti-swordsman buff.

If slinger is available to more civs, why is it only exclusive to eagle civs? How about the slinger you proposed for Tibetian? Only the mounted version?

Slings were genuine legit weapons even into Medieval times even in Europe

Like Romans were using Sling mercenaries for centuries. Mostly Baleric but even Celts used them in the same era as dudes running around in paint

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Since it is a reginal unit, more special than generic unit, so I would hope the Eagle Warrior can be returned to the Aztec. But it’s just a name, so eventually it is not such a big issue.

Because the Tibetan slinger is UU of their civ in Castles in my concept, no matter it is either mounted or foot.
I would said the Slinger here is a regional unit of American civs instead of ‘eagle’ civs, as the Bantu Africans would also have the scout infantry line without horses.

At least slinger can be as prevalent as camels if they are open to more civs.

Why?
The Eagle line is broken as hell.

Just make one or 2 new lines that work better in the gameplay and leave the eagles as they are.

Because of these weird changes it makes it really tough to get through the concepts themselves. Which unfortunately have all
a) Way to special bonusses that won’t do much in most situations but require a lot of work to implement. In general if you want to achieve a specific utility affect, it’s most of the time better to make a “broader” general bonus and allow the players to figure out how to use effectively on their own. Potentially even different applications.
b) Almost no effective early game bonus. Which just doesn’t work well with the current Eagle Civ designs. They all have these early game bonusses because they have to snowball that as they lack the cavalry lines.
c) Bonusses that can get easily out of hand very quickly. Trash eagles with full armor upgrades? Seriously? Counters all other Trash and thanks to the armor is even durable against most other stuff. Absolutely broken. Also the Emerald mines or the “no fee to buy” stuff can be absolutely broken in certain maps that are designed around having almost nothing of certain Ressources.

These concepts are way too complicated setup yet it’s neither clear what these “twerky” bonusses shall achieve nor seem they designed to “fit” in the game. They seem to be designed to be broken in certain situations and maps instead. Which I don’t get why.
The art of creating Civs is to try make easy to understand and implement bonusses that work together so the civ has it’s specialities but feels nevertheless viable on most other situations/maps whatever when they can’t make excessive use of the main bonusses. Often therefore main Bonusses should be chosen in a way that they can cover up each other aswell when you can’t make use of one or two of them.

There’s stuff like:

Your archer line has 5 PA in Castle age and 7 PA in Imp. These are some Rattan Numbers. That’s not a “balanced advantage”. It means the other civs practically can’t use the archer line against you when you go Archers. They can use Skirms ofc. But nevertheless - for me it looks no like you put a lot of thinking into that. Especially as the armor Upgrades for Infantry will allow to make that eagle + archer play absurdly strong and annoying to deal with.
Maybe there is a world where you remove the two last Infantry armor upgrades and don’t let Gambesons affect the archers where this can work out, maybe with some funky Bonus to the Militia line. But keeping the full Infnatry Armor whilst adding a tech that makes trash eagles and let it also apply to Archers is just broken as hell.

Not a fan. This is over my intention. I don’t want to see a new slippery slope similar to the Lancer.
If it cannot be the regional unit just for Americans, acting as the alternative of Hand Cannoneers, I would prefer to keep it just the unit for Incas and maybe shared with Chimu only.

They have no shock infantry upgrade (the current elite eagle upgrade).

No. it is 3 PA in Castle Age and 5 PA in Imperial. Remember, they don’t even have Padded Archer Armor.

Sorry I understood Ring Archer Armor. Why you don’t write “miss all Archer Armor” instead? It’s really easy to get it wrong this way if you don’t look exactly into it.
Bonusses should be easy to get by looking over it. These funky stuff is just way too complicated to get - when it then doesn’t even have that much of an Impact in the total numbers.

Now I have to check what other lines are affected and in what manner…
Ok Skirms remain basically unchanged but you only use Infantry Armor to upgrade both types.

Basically they only have one Armor tech for all their lines… I don’t get that. Isn’t that a no-brainer then? What are the tradeoffs to consider if and when to get these techs then?

And why you make this so complicated to undestand. Just write: “Miss all other Armor Upgrades than Infantry which upgrades also the Archer units.” Way better to get and work with.

Nevertheless this Unit will have 7 PA and actually quite decent attack and Speed and no Trash Counter. It’s way, way too powerful for a trash unit.

Just about names. I’d prefer :
footman > Vanguard > Elite Vanguard

Yeah, that would be a better and simpler solution. I think I zoned out a little when writing my first comment in this topic. The Eagle line can be unique for the Aztecs, while a new general unit line that functions similar to them can be introduced to other civilisations.

That could be a good name as well. “Light Infantry” can be another alternative.

Like, you play infantry first, and when you need to switch to archers or play a combination with archers, the armor is already ready and no need to pay and wait.

My intension is to make it able to compete with the Hussar. But I don’t deny that this idea may need more tweaking. Maybe the Imperial UT that making it become trash could also make it take more damage from spearman unit.

Another good suggestion.

Then you have to do more balance works than just renaming the current eagles for most of the civs and adding a new and unique Eagle to the Aztecs.

Yeah… that would be a weird “upgrade” if it adds a counter against it
But it is a sign for me that you get the issue: A trash unit that has no trash counter is always either so bad it is almost useless or it would become immediately completely broken in trash wars.
You would need to design a trash counter against Eagles first. Which you have all my support tbh. But with the current eagle design I don’t see how you will ever hit that “sweet spot”. I don’t think it exists.

These sound very european.

Making a Native American civ having a speedy unit able to raid in late games could be a very valuable thing and probably worthy even having a new soft counter for that unit.

I’m open to and welcome any new thoughts. I don’t mind the most parts of the civ concepts may be going to be changed as long as the core idea of the styles (the trash Light Infantry, the cheap Shock Infantry, and the quick Scout Infantry line upgrades for at least Fast Castle strategy) can be continued.

The Emerald just can add the resources directly like Khmer Farms so it would be more convenience when researching and training and this is its purpose.

It would provide about same amount of gold per minute as Gold Mine. In comparison, the Turks and Malians might have more gold for buying during the same period of time. Also, their initial fee for selling is still 30 percent, so in theory I feel they would not be as powerful as the Saracens in operating market transactions.

In any case, if needed, the miner can have less efficiency when mining Emerald than mining Gold.

That could be the case. But it would be interesting if a few civilisations had unique unit lines. However, if that doesn’t work then a brand new version of the Eagle Warrior can be added to game instead for the Aztecs as you suggested.