Concepts of new African DLCs

UpmostRook9474 · July 24, 2024, 4:10pm

Hello. Thank you for clicking to read.

I think that in the foreseeable future, the African region may get at most 2 DLCs that totally contain up to 6 new civs.
And this is a compilation of my top 6 picks for potential African new civs.

DLC1: Focus on West Africa and the Western Sahel region.

Soninke
Songhai
Kanembu/Kanuris

DLC2: Focus on groups that fiercely resist invaders and somehow focus on East Africa.

Nubians
Somalis
Bantu

Guess somebody would complain the Bantu that are an umbrella here. I can understand some people thinking Bantu is too large a collection and Kongolese, Shona and Swahilis deserve their own civs. I agree that they might be wonderful. It’s just that here I choose and try to have an umbrella to generally represent them first. Maybe later this umbrella may be ideally split, but if not, at least the 6 new civs I picked should be enough to present the Africa in a decent degree. Hope the replies would focus on the concepts of civ rather than this issue.

Additionally, I would like to mention that the Wolof people and the Yoruba people are also possible options. I have not choose them, mainly because the former was less associated with trans-Saharan trade and the latter had less interaction with the Malians. If we give up the Soninke, one of the two can be a fit to take their place. And, if we can have a rare opportunity to get the third and last DLC, then I would have this DLC contain Wolof and Yoruba and split the Bantu into Swahilis and Kongolese.

Okay let’s start.

Soninke

The other part of Mandé peoples than the Mandinka people (the Malians), they would mainly represent the ancient Ghana Empire and the Sosso Empire that succeeded the Ghana Empire in the game.

Civ Concepts

Gold miners generate 10% food in addition to gold.
They were the first people in the history of West Africa to establish a powerful empire through rich gold mines, known as the “land of gold”.
Archery Ranges and Stables can be built in the Dark Age. (Still require a Barrack.)
Legends recorded by Arab visitors says the king could order 200,000 soldiers, including 40,000 archers. Although this may have been an exaggeration, but it shows that there military was impressive to those visitors.
Building a larger army with gathering troops earlier should reflect this.
Conscription and Sappers can be researched in the Castle Age.
Refer to the same as above.
[Team] Receive 5% gold when Markets provide gold to allies’ Trade Carts.
Taxes were imposed on merchants, and especially salt importers and exporters were required to pay gold dinars as customs.
UU: Kuralemme
The warrior class in Soninke society. Tough Infantry unit.
As guards, it can protect near by friendly units by absorbing some of the damage, similar to the Deflection ability of the AoE3 Papal units.
Can use the skin of existing Sosso Guard. A Record has described there were 10 pages (attendants) holding shields and swords decorated with gold and standing behind the king, so it could also have a brand new skin with a sword and a golden shield.
Castle UT: Royal Wealth (or Gold Dust Trade)
Every existing and future Villager provides 5 gold; Gold mines last +30%.
The royals had great wealth because traditionally the king claimed as his own all nuggets of gold. People could only have gold dust, so the gold dust trade began to flourish extensively. The Wangara is a merchant community that emerged due to the gold dust trade and is widely distributed throughout West Africa through long-distance trade.
Imperial UT: Big Quiver
Archer line units fire an additional projectile with 50% accuracy.
Except for the use of poisoned arrows, bowmen in West Africa were skilled at delivering a large volume of shafts to help rectify the shortcoming in the weaker native bows and arrows (compared to those in Asia and Europe). Archers generally carried quivers filled with 40–50 arrows each, and volume could be heavy with some men firing two arrows at a time.
Like warriors of some tribes in Sierra Leone that carried so many arrows so they needed two quivers, this UT can even be named “Double Quiver” if going to cover the Sierra Leone tribes.
No Gold Shaft Mining, Ring Archer Armor, Hussar, Paladin, Parthian Tactics, gunpowder.
Not really good at Navy and Monk, but the defensive structures and siege weapons are decent.
Gameplay with Soninke:
Intense rushes in the Feudal Age are encouraged. Immediately train Scouts or Archers when hitting the new age.
In the late game, use Kuralemme + archers for making up the lack of last archer armor.
Try your best to crush the opponents before running out of gold, and researching Royal Wealth as soon as possible would be helpful to this.
Gameplay against Soninke:
Focus on attacking the gold mines they rely on.
Once lack of gold, they should expose the shortcomings of Scout Cavalry line and Skirmisher line that are not fully upgraded in the Imperial Age.

Songhai

Build the last and the largest Empire in West Africa with golds, firm Islamic faith, well-trained standing army, and control of the ##### River.

Civ Concepts

Blacksmith infantry armor upgrades and Barrack technologies (Supplies, Gambesons, Squires, Arson) affect cavalry; Gambesons costs +100%.
Heavy cavalry wearing mail armor and quilted armor are the main force of Songhai’s army. In the battle against the Moroccans, their army consisted of 10,000 cavalry and 30,000 infantry.
Units and buildings have +10% HP when they are nearby mines (maybe within 4 tiles).
The Songhai created a basic tax system and monitor the production and sales of salt farms and gold mines. Whenever the invaders crossed the desert and occupied the salt mines, they were repelled by the Songhai army that quickly arrived before they could receive support.
Monks can garrison at buildings that can train units; Buildings garrisoned by Monks have +10% faster when training units, researching technologies, firing arrows and generating resources. (No stack.)
Askia Muhammad’s reforms based on Sharia law fundamentally reorganized the Empire, bringing much stability and prosperity to the Empire.
Buildings provide 8% gold of their wood cost when built.
The center of the empire, Gao, was where trans-Saharan trade first developed. It was the southern terminus of a trade route since the 7th century and developed from a trading post into a huge, prosperous citystate.
[Team] Barracks spawn a free Militia when built.
UB: Weaving Workshop
Generate 2 gold per second, and can be garrisoned by Monks too. Require Loom, cost (about maybe 150) wood only, use 15 population space, and buildable from the Castle Age with a size of 3×3.
The Songhai are well known for their woven blankets and mats. The elaborate cotton blankets (terabeba) woven by men in the town of Tera are highly prized. Their fine clothes are said to have been one of the commodities purchased by the Portuguese, along with gold, ivory and labor.
UU: War Bull
Animal unit that cannot benefit from armor upgrades and cannot be converted. With no gold cost, low HP, high pierce armor, additional charge attack with trample damage, and attack bonus against archers. It is supposed to be good at countering low HP units especially archers, but it is also countered by gunpowder units.
The Songhai trained herds of long-horned bulls in the imperial stables to charge at the enemy in battle. The mad bulls won’t stop their rampage just by a few arrows, and the horns at high speed are fatal to the lightly armored footmen.
Castle UT: River Warlord
Docks, Markets, and units and technologies in there cost -10%; Weaving Workshops use -5 population and generate +10% gold.
In Songhai, a chief of the waters oversaw all civil matters related to water transport, and a chief of canoes supervised naval operations. The Songhai people had fairly complete control over most of the ##### River and established military and trading posts along the coast. They established what was likely West Africa’s first canoe navy and developed a prosperous river trade.
Imperial UT: Standing Army
Make Conscription provide double the effect.
One of Askia Muhammad’s reforms was the establishment of a standing army that was likey the first in African or West African history. These skilled professional soldiers could be deployed quickly, ensuring the empire’s dominance in the region.
No Stone Shaft Mining, Two-Man Saw, Husbandry, Barding Armor line, Paladin, Arbalester, Elite Skirmisher, Architecture, Fortified Wall, gunpowder.
Besides the defensive structures, the siege weapons are bad too, but there are very good navy and Monks.
Gameplay with Songhai:
Has the advantage of going Man-at-arms rush. After that, switching between infantry and cavalry is silky smooth.
Compete for gold in open maps, or use Weaving Workshops and Monks to boom in closed maps.
Don’t forget the fully upgraded Cavalry Archer line.
Gameplay against Songhai:
Based on their lack of Elite Skirmishers, develop a strategy against the Knights that have Gambesons.
Try to use high health units to offset the charge of the War Bulls. Once a War Bull has spent its charge, its low health and low base attack will make it very easy to kill quickly, just like a bull that stops running and loses its threat.

Kanembu/Kanuris

Build the long-lived Kanem-Bornu Empire, controlling the areas around Lake Chad, the oases in the Sahara Desert, the salt mines of Bilma and the majority of Hausaland.

Civ Concepts

Shepherds drop off +15% food and add it directly to the stockpile.
The nomadic peoples around Lake Chad have made a living by grazing cattle, goats and Camels since ancient times.
Every technologies (or only upgrades in TCs and economy buildings) spawns a goat when researched.
Emphasis the livestock identity, and referenced to the civ bonus of African civs in AoE3.
Camel Riders and Hand Cannoneers cost -40% gold.
Among Idris Aloom’s widely acclaimed military innovations were the introduction of camel cavalry in the Lake Chad region, the hiring of Turkish mercenary and the training of slave gunmen.
Receive 0.15% of gold per second based on the stone stockpile from the Castle Age.
An important stop in the trans-Saharan trade, Bilma is known for salt and natron production.
[Team] Livestock have +3 LoS and +0.1 speed, and only lose 1 HP when receive a strike from enemy.
UB: Ribat
Unique upgrade for Watch Tower in Universities. Cost higher to upgrade and have stronger stats than Guard Tower, and able to train Barrack units, Archery Range units, Stable units, Cima and Petards.
Can be garrisoned by Trade Carts and fire more arrows at the time.
No equivalent upgrade to Keep.
During the height of the Bornu Empire, ribats were built on frontiers and routes to the north, providing security for caravans, travelers and pilgrims and establishing diplomatic relations with Tripoli and Turkey.
UU1: Cima
Camel lancer unit with high HP. Compared with Mameluke, it has a lower efficiency against cavalry because its range is only 1, but it has better survivability against archers.
As the Sayfawa Dynasty of Kanem extended control beyond Kanuri tribal lands, fiefs were granted to military commanders, as cima, or ‘master of the frontier’.
UU2: Lifidi Cavalry (II) → Mailed Lifidi Cavalry (III) → Cuirassed Lifidi Cavalry (IV)
Replace the Knight line. Trainable from the Feudal Age.
Refer to the Lifidi Knight of AoE3, the lifidi is a special quilted armor unique to Central Africa.
The Bornu seemed to be only the native power in Africa that can produce plate cuirasses by themselves.
The stats for example could be like:
Cost: 50 food, 65 gold.
HP: 60 → 90 → 120
Attack: 6 → 10 → 14, +1 → +2 → +3 vs archers
Armor: 1/2 → 2/3 → 2/3
Speed: 1.4
Upgrade cost: 50 food, 50 gold → 400 food, 400 gold
(Always can be tweaked so don’t be too serious on the stats.)
Castle UT: Livestock Market
Goats and Cattle can be purchased at Markets; Livestock garrisoned in Markets generate gold at diminishing marginal generating rates. (More the livestock, less the average gold generated per second, like how they generate food in Gurjaras Mills.)
Livestock trading is one of the cultural features of their and other African regions. Livestock from the nomads around Lake Chad were sold to other areas where raising livestock is less easy.
Imperial UT: Desert Warfare
Turn the rest gold cost of Camel Riders into food.
The identity of trash camel was used to symbolize their power in the Sahara Desert. The Bornu army was transported in the desert and the Lake Chad via camel or large boats and fed by free and slave women cooks.
No Crop Rotation, Two-Man Saw, Pikeman, Thumb Ring, Parthian Tactics, Paladin, Heavy Camel Rider, Bombard Cannon, Fortified Wall, Guard Tower, Masonry, Arrowslits, Heated Shot.
Monks and Siege Weapons are good. The Navy has all upgrades except Galleon and Cannon Galleon. The defensive structures (if no Ribat) are completely bad as above.
Gameplay with Kanembu/Kanuris
Sheep scouting has advantages, and if no urgent need for food, livestock can be reserved for Livestock Market.
Stone should be actively mined. Depending on the situation, spent the stone to actively build Ribats or save the stone for gold generation.
Cima’s good statistics should make it a main unit in the late game.
Gameplay against Kanembu/Kanuris
The Lifidi Cavalry line, while decent against archers, are supposed to be not as good as knights in melee combat, and they are too expensive in the Feudal Age.
Fight them early to avoid them gathering Lifidi Cavalry, stone and livestock without pressure.

Nubians

Defend the Christian Nubia, including Makuria, Nobadia and Alodia, and resist the Arabs with outstanding archery skills.

Civ Concepts

Archery Range technologies and the Fletching line upgrades cost -50%.
Give the civ a distinct and strong archer style.
Units fire 15% faster near Relics (maybe within 10 tiles); Relics also generate gold when carried by Monks.
The Arabs used a catapult to besiege the Makurian capital of Dongola. Under threat from the catapult, the Nubians tried to defend this Christian walled city and the old church in the center of the town.
Villagers and Monks return 50% of the costs when killed.
Reflecting their struggles while under siege in desert.
Each Market generates 0.25 food per second.
The Baqt was centuries-long treaty between Muslims and Nubians. Egypt regularly sent goods including wheat and lentils south in exchange for slaves from Makuria. The slaves sent from Nubia made up the backbone of the Fatimid army.
[Team] Revetments can be accessed and researched in TCs after Loom was researched.
The cost of Revetments should be a little bit expensive in the Feudal Age but pretty affordable in the Castle Age, maybe 150 wood and 50 gold.
Surrounded by formidable deserts, Dongola was a well fortified city in the seventh century. Its walls, which were at least 6 meters high, were one of the keys to defending the city from Arab sieges.
UB: Saqiyah
Replaces the Mill, with an aura and a size of 3×3 like Folwark, and a long empty charge bar. Farms within its aura have +200% HP. When the Farms within the aura are gathered from, the bar would be charged, and then the Saqiyah would spawn a Villager or a Cattle (optional) when fully charged.
A Saqiyah is a traditional mechanical water lifting wheel powered by oxen. It has been used in the Nubia region since the time of the Kushite Kingdom.
UU: Archer of the Eyes (or Pupil Smiter)
The most expensive and powerful foot archer that can reduce the targets’ LoS by 2 or 3 (elite)(no stack).
If there weren’t the Composite bowman, its feature would be that it could ignore pierce armor instead of reduction in LoS.
Castle UT: Hit-and-run Tactics
Mounted units have a charge bar as a shield that can offset up to 15 HP of damage.
Unlike Shrivamsha Rider’s dodge capability, this is calculated in terms of damage rather than the number of projectiles, equating to a smaller but regenerative Bloodlines effect.
Makuria had owned experienced cavalry forces. Arab sources had claimed that Nubian horsemen were superior to Muslim cavalry in hit-and-run tactics.
Imperial UT: Barbed Arrows
The projectiles fired by archer units (except for skirmishers) and buildings can can cause the targets (except for buildings, ships, and siege weapons) to bleed out and lose 1 HP every X seconds.
Archeology seems to show the Nobadian archers shot barbed and possibly poisoned arrows of around 50 cm length.
The X could be 3, 5, 10 or more.
No Mill, Guilds, Champion, Bloodlines, Cavalier, gunpowder.
Navy and siege weapons are bad, but defensive structures and Monks are fully upgraded.
Gameplay with Nubians
The archer and Relic bonuses should obviously be actively utilized. Let Monks accompany your archers with Relics, or place Relics in Monasteries located on the front line.
Actively farm around Saqiyah, while the cost-returning bonus and Revetments should be helpful as Saqiyah could be easy targets for early rush.
The capability of reduction in LoS gives you a very good chance of striking first or escaping an unwanted engagement.
Gameplay against Nubians
Always prepare some Skirmishers or Mangonels ready for your army.
Actively fight for Relics and keep them safe deep in your base. Attacking their Monks or Monasteries should be a priority.
Bleeding and the reduction in LoS can be stopped by being healed or by garrisoned in a building.
A reduction in LoS doesn’t really mean a reduction in range for ranged units and buildings. The enemy can still be targeted within the range as long as it is revealed by another unit or building or it is revealed as it is attacking.

Somalis

Control the coast of the Horn of Africa, develop trade with the East, and launch wars against Christians!

Civ Concepts

Foragers generate 20% gold in addition to food.
Coffee was first exported out of Ethiopia to Yemen by Somali merchants from Berbera and Zeila, which was procured from Harar and the Abyssinian interior.
The inhabitants of Ifat Sultanate were the first to be recorded using Catha edulis in the 14th century. The plant likely originated in the Horn of Africa specifically Ethiopia-Somali area, from there it spread to Kenya and the Arabian Peninsula.
War Galley line units have +1/+2/+3 attack against buildings and non-ship units in the Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age.
The commercial reputation of the Somali coast naturally attracted buccaneers since the ancient times and later the Portuguese. To gain control of the coast, the Somali fleet had attacked their bases and colonies along the coast, such as the Swahili coast occupied by the Portuguese.
Buildings regenerate 2 HP per second.
The lucrative commercial networks of successive medieval Somali kingdoms and city-states saw the establishment of several dozen stone cities in the interior of Somalia as well as the coastal regions. Fortresses and walls were actively built in important commercial and coastal cities.
Free Heated Shot and Arrowslits.
Give the civ a distinct and strong tower defense gameplay.
[Team] Coinage and Banking can be researched instantly and increase gold stockpile by 30% in addition.
The Sultanate of Mogadishu minted its own coins to circulate in Indian Ocean trade, promoting its commercial hegemony. The prosperous Indian Ocean trade allowed currencies from various countries to circulate, and coins from as far away as Vietnam and the Song Dynasty of China can be found in Mogadishu.
UU: Malassay
Infantry armed with scimitars and oryx hide shields. Moves quickly, causing the attacker to take 25% damage when receiving melee damage.
A Malassay was a member of the elite infantry units that formed the Adal Sultanate’s household troops.
Castle UT: Lighthouses
The towers and Castles generate 0.2 gold per second, and free repair ships one-by-one within the range at a rate of 2 HP per second like a Monk healing a unit.
Somalia’s historical strategic location within the world’s oldest and busiest sea lanes encouraged the construction of lighthouses to co-ordinate shipping and to ensure the safe entrance of commercial vessels in the nation’s many port cities.
Imperial UT: Somali Arquebusier
Gunpowder units have +4 pierce armor.
In the early 16th century, the Adal Sultanate troops armed with Turkish firearms nearly conquered the Ethiopians who probably first time had to fight against a gunpowder force. Their subsequent battles against the Portuguese proved the value of firearms over traditional weapons through their use by both sides.
No Two-Man Saw, Hussar, Paladin, Heavy Cavalry Archer, Parthian Tactics, Siege Onager.
Monks have no Imperial Age Monastery technologies, but gunpowder units, navy and defensive structures are fully upgraded.
Gameplay with Somalis
No matter land or water, open or closed, offensive or defensive, the tech trees are decent and versatile, and the towers are well worth actively building.
Coinage and Banking are worth trying even in 1v1 games.
Malassay is the best answer against melee units with low HP and high attack power like Shotel Warrior.
Gameplay against Somalis
Rush their berry bushes in the very early, or try to pressure them in the middle game when they don’t have the economy bonus.
Controlling their stone mines, they will lack many of the benefits from bonuses.
Malassay is not good at fighting against the Champion, similar to the Ghulam.

Bantu

From the shores of Swahili to the jungles of Kongo, the Bantu people established many kingdoms and empires, and cooperated with or fought against the Portuguese.

Civ Concepts

Villagers, infantry units and archer units cost -10% since the Feudal Age.
Some Bantu states, like the Kingdom of Kongo, organized workers and armies through forced labor and royal levies; despite logistical difficulties, the king could forcibly mobilize large populations from provinces and vasal states.
Lumberjacks generate 8% food in addition to wood.
Slash-and-burn farming is a traditional and common form of agriculture in Central Africa, especially in the rainforest regions.
Units receive -33% damage from animals, and generate 20 gold when killing aggressive wild animals like boars and wolves.
As a profitable luxury product, the ivory was the main export commodity in the entire Bantu-speaking world. Skilled elephant hunters had hunted elephants in savannas and rainforests.
Free elite UU upgrade and Hoardings.
In Mbanza Kongo, the capital of the Kingdom of Kongo, stone structures including palaces, defensive fortresses and religious buildings were built on the central hills. The Greater Zimbabwe is also famous for its large-scale stone structures.
When trading units gather gold, directly add 50% to the stockpile and carry only the another 50% back.
Whether it’s the network along the Congo River Basin or the Indian Ocean’s route through the Swahili Coast to Zimbabwe, trade has flourished across the Bantu kingdoms and empires of the Bantu-speaking world since ancient times, trading gold, copper, iron, ivory, cloth, food and labor.
[Team] Fish and Fish Traps last +30%.
A source of wealth that became important throughout the history of Central Africa was the trade in dried fish. The Luba Empire became wealthy and powerful by controlling the fishing industry, building canoes and drying ovens, and setting up networks of trade paths along which porters carried tightly packed headloads of dried fish. In tropical conditions many foods were perishable, but dried fish could be preserved for months and carried to regions deficient in protein, where it was sold for high prices.
No Stable, mounted units and Cavalry units. but in Barracks having the Eagle line.
The Eagle line can best be renamed and reskinned to more generic ones, like Scout Infantry → Light Infantry → Shock Infantry.
UB: Granary
Just a simple drop-off site for food. Cost very low such like 15 wood only, has as low HP as a Palisade, is built as fast as a Palisade, and buildable from the Dark Age with a size of 1×1 and a LoS of 1 only.
Not going to replace the Mill, so you still require a Mill for building Farms and researching farming upgrades.
UU: Mbeba Ngao
A warrior throwing knives like mambele and equipped with a large oval-shaped shield. With 40 HP, 10 melee attack, +5 attack against archers, 4 base pierce armor, and same speed as a Spearman. The Elite upgrade provide +1 pierce armor and +10 HP only.
It’s a Swahili term for “shield bearer”. Among many Bantu groups, the traditional pointed oval-shaped shield generally held a special status as often the only defensive equipment of the warrior. The shield has a symbolic meaning of honor and loyalty to the Nguni warriors. Among the large number of soldiers in the Kongolese army, only a smaller group of the most elites and nobles could be allowed to be equipped with shields.
A mambele is a form of hybrid knife/axe in central and southern Africa. It can be used in close combat as a hatchet or dagger, or more typically as a throwing weapon.
Castle UT1: Nganga
Monks heal +150% faster, and have a aura (maybe with a radius of 4, same as the healing) that makes enemy units receive +20% damage (no stack).
The button is at where the button of the elite UU upgrade was.
In the Bantu-speaking world, a Nganga is a traditional medicine man who uses a combination of herbs, medical/religious advice and spiritual guidance to heal people. In the Shona states, the N’anga, their Nganga, are believed to have religious powers to tell fortunes, and to change, heal, bless or even kill people.
Castle UT2: Assegai
Skirmisher units and Scout Infantry units have +50% bonus attack; Scout Infantry units have a charge bar to throw their spears.
A spear/javelin weapon originating from eastern and southern Africa. Warriors from such as Shona, Nguni, and Swahili all used this weapon extensively and were proficient in it.
Imperial UT: Mobilization
Militia line, Spearman line, and Archer line units are trained +50% faster and use -15% population space.
The army of the Kingdom of Kongo consisted of a mass levy of archers, drawn from the general male population; The Mwenemutapa Empire of Shona is said that it could muster more than 5000 warriors within 24 hours, and more of the army could be mobilized from communities by the royal war council when there was an emergency.
No Crop Rotation, Gambesons, Halberdier, Thumb Ring, Block Printing, Siege Engineers, gunpowder units (except for Hand Cannoneer).
In addition to defensive structures, the navy are nice as well since both the Kongolese and Swahili people had good records about military ships. Monks are decent at least in the Castle age, but siege weapons are just bad.
Gameplay with Bantu
Have a very solid economy. Build Granaries actively, especially in maps with lots of shore fish, huntable animals and berry bushes.
Let soldiers accompany Monks. The Monks can heal them very quickly and they, particularly infantry, can protect the Monks very well from the melee attack with more damage.
Gameplay against Bantu
They have less military bonus in the early so try to pressure them at that point, especially attacking their lumberjacks.
Making them harder to research UTs will effectively weaken their late-game power.
They don’t have Block Printing, so the Bombard Cannon will be very useful as long as being careful about Shock Infantry that have Assegai.

DynasticPlanet5 · July 24, 2024, 4:38pm

Lumping Bantu into one civ feels like a waste of potential since it covers an area of people almost as large as where Germanic peoples are and we have at least 7?

At least split into Kongo, Zimbabwean Swahili and one more?

UpmostRook9474 · July 24, 2024, 4:43pm

Um… I have already stated a note for it…

Before DOI, some people want and insist on as many as 8 new Indian civs.
Then we know that the answer is new 3.5 civs including a Dravidian umbrella.
No matter you think that is acceptable or not, I think that shows such the way is the most the devs can do for now.

TungstenBoar · July 24, 2024, 7:34pm

I think its easirr to just add one Zimbabwean or Swahili civ and maybe rename them later

Umbrella names are dumb. Like, I dont think we absolutely needed a Kannadiga civ (I would prefer so, but it wasnt needed for the first DLC) but closing the door foe it by naming the civ Dravidians is silly

I will later give you some feedback for tge individual civs, but honestly 6 civs is a lot and I think it may disemcourage feedback

UpmostRook9474 · July 24, 2024, 7:55pm

Again, I do not want to dwell on this issue. I don’t care the name like Dravidians and Bantu is silly or not. You do not like it, he do not like it, but I can accept it, and someone may accept it too. Naming it Dravidians or Bantu as an umbrella never means the door for new civs from split is closed, like there had been the Indians as a name of an umbrella civ for 9 years. That’s it.

I took the time to come up with 6 civ concepts, including many ideas, and create such the long post, but people only paid attention to the name. I have already state that I do not want the replies that focus on this issue since that is not a point here but people just reply only for this issue. I start to regret to create this post.

TungstenBoar · July 24, 2024, 9:04pm

You got only two comments on that, dont be a drama queen

Well, looking at the Soninke, at least to me it seems like the civ has a decent archer opening, maybe a bit too modest, but overall feels lke its missing a bit on flavour at first it seems like a really good archer civ, but then you get an imoerial age cav UT, which isnt even that strong. You do have a decent eco UT and a decent eco bonus, but I feel like doubling on archers could be more interesting

Same problem with Songhai. They have decent knights but they are lacking an strong bonus to kickstart the game, and in late game your only real advantage is faster cav and faster created units. Their first UT is quite bad. I think it would be more interesting if you gave them the Soninke imperial upgrade.

I really like the Kamembu, although I think they dont need that much more uniqueness when they have a decemt start. The castle age UT feels like it should be a civ bonus, ans the imperial age UT at least to me feels unnecesary when you could just give them generic cheap on gold camels.

UpmostRook9474 · July 24, 2024, 10:20pm

When I already clearly claim that at the very beginning of the post, two is many as it shows that they do not care the points of my post. Sorry but if I do not highlight that, there will be the third, the forth, the fifth…
Anyway thank you for discussing the civ concepts now, really.

The Soninke civ is aimed to be versatile in some degree in my original intension. I wish they are able to be played like a cavalry civ too, not only like an archer civ.
The archers are supposed to combo with the Kuralemme, the UU that absorbs damage, and that should be powerful enough especially when against archers, so there is probably no need for an archer UT.
The cavalry are hard to combo with the UU due to the speed, so have +20 HP by the UT to cover the lack of plate armor and make them better especially in melee fight.

Maybe you misunderstand something, getting this civ wrong. They do not have faster cavalry as they have only Squires for both infantry and cavalry, no Husbandry. I will edit the article later to make it more clear.

I just thought that, after the smooth switch from the feudal MAA or spearmen rush to cavalry, the safer gold income + Knights that have Supplies and Gambesons could be very solid power in the Castle age. Faster-training Hussars and Cavaliers having Supplies and Gambesons are also supposed to be great in the late game. That’s why I remove their Elite Skirmisher upgrade. If the cavalry get +20 HP, that should be broken.

Their Castle age UT is fine I think. It helps trade and navy a little, but the most importantly using -5 pop for the Weaving Workshops is supposed to be a pretty good effect in my intention. A Weaving Workshop garrisoned by Monks and having the Castle age UT can generate 0.6 gold per second by only 10 + 1 pop space. If needed, this rate can still be tweaked to be more by increase its base rate or the buff from the UT, but I don’t sure whether it needs more.

Their identity of livestock should be complete, so I guess the uniqueness you said they don’t need is the gold from stone stockpile. It’s actually a way to encourage people to actively gather stone while they have bad defense. I used to even have them no base stone wall in my plan. After they have stone, they may want to try Ribats. Even if they do not use Ribats at least they can get more gold as bonus.

The effect of Livestock Market can absolutely be a civ bonus, but it is a bit gimmicky and also the current civ bonus about livestock is enough. The trash camel without Heavy upgrade can make more difference and more distinctive niche from the Cima (camel lancer UU) that have gold cost and stronger stats. At least the trash camel was actually the first identity I set when planning this civ.

TungstenBoar · July 25, 2024, 7:29pm

Oh didnt realize they didnt have that

They are paying a lot to get worse than generic heavy cav then, I really dialike that.

Also I get trying to make them the “versatile civ” but I think it makes sense tp not make them focused on cav when thats what almost every civ in west africa does and also archer have a ton of synergy with their eco

And I disagree that an archer UT would be too much, I thibk it would be fine.

Oh I thought that they only benefited from the generic infantry techs, not supplies and gambesons because they are militia specific. If they benefit from these two I think they would be too good against archer civs with their super strong knights, but at the same time their eco sucks so maybe they arent even good at that. And if their early game is as crippling as it appears to me, I think they would be way worse against cav

I think that you are overvaluing the value of the unique building. In castle age, creating more vills is better for the value the buioding gives since its barely better than one villager. And also, their early game is really bad.

And its also bad to have a resource generation bonus scale better into late game since thats when resources become scarce. Thats why feitorias are so strong but so pop inefficient, but your new building is neither of those things and its only problematic in hyper long games thanks to the UT

I just dont think its worth it to make you pay for an alternative to farms which has a slightly slower gather rate.

I dont have any problem with trash camels, I just think its better to just use either cheaper camels or trash camels, not both of them

Maybe they could get plate barding in castle age instead or some free cav techs idk

And btw, my main problem is that I feel like the knight replacement and ribats just push the civ ib too many directions and just feel like too much unique stuff for a single civ

UpmostRook9474 · July 26, 2024, 3:28am

Well I’m almost convinced by you. I agree it would be interesting to have a civilization in West Africa that doesn’t focus on cavalry. I will edit the original post with a new UT and you can check it.

With their good camels and monks, they might not be so hard against the Knights.

One of my original intentions was to see them actively researching as much infantry tech as possible even though that’s for cavalry. This way they can switch between infantry and cavalry more easily at any time and are therefore more likely to try infantry. I even think this would make their early MAA rush transition to Scouts strong, based on the extra free MAA from the team bonus and both Supplies and infantry armor serving Scouts. On the other hand, cavalry that cost -15 food with Supplies are a bit inferior to the Berber ones, but they can get +1 pierce armor with Gambesons in Castle age.

Alright, I’d give them a new economic bonus and make Gambesons cost +100% to slow down the power. But isn’t it feasible as an aggresive civilization similar to Magyars and Berbers with barely few economic bonuses? I’m afraid that such a civ might be overpowered if getting economic bonuses.

In the Castle age the population cap is far, so that people can build many Weaving Workshops with only wood cost and have the gold trickle without running off the population space.
On the other hand I’d love to increase the Weaving Workshop’s base generation rate. I just didn’t sure how high should it be. This is exactly why I’m eager to discuss the civ concepts with people. How high the rate do you think a building like this should have? As you think the 0.5 is too low, now I’d change it to 2 gold per second as the base rate.

Btw, I used to think about another way: let the Weaving workshop be just a building that can be garrisoned by up to, say, 10 people, and generate no gold of its own and use no population. Villagers can garrison into it, and the ones garrisoning in it won’t be shown as idle and generate gold.

I think the problem with Feitoria may be due to the resource types other than gold. Only gold is basically safe, just like you have Relics. I’m not totally insisting on making it a Feitoria-like building, I just think this civilization needs a way to get more gold in the late game.

Why would you think the livestock are an alternative to farms when they generate gold?
The UT unlocks the Market to buy goats and cattle with gold, and livestock can generate gold in Markets.
They do work like the Gurjaras ones as they all generate resource with diminishing margin, but need a UT rather than free, in Markets rather than Mills, and generate gold rather than food.

Blacsmith Imperial armor in Castle age already belongs to Tibetans in my civ concepts.

I didn’t originally develop a knight replacement, but I thought that such a civilization might be slightly weaker against archers, and it would make sense to have the lifidi armor as part of the civilization. A reference to Gurjaras, it was natually to come up with a replacement that can be accessed in Feudal and is better than Knights against archers but not as good against melee units. At the same time, I noticed that this design echoes the stone bonus and the Livestock Market that need to be accumulated first to gain benefits later.

Ribats was originally used as the name of a tower UT, but the effect had not yet been determined. Later I felt that giving towers a UT was a waste of slots for such a civ and it would be better to make them a unique upgrade to the towers. Their tech tree offers very weak defenses, and the Ribats can somewhat compensate by guarding trade or livestock. You can train units directly at Ribats and the units don’t have to travel so far from other buildings to where the enemy killing your trade carts.

One type of UB (strictly speaking, unique upgrade) and two types of UU. They would not the only civilization to have so.

UpmostRook9474 · August 2, 2024, 9:47am

A week has passed. Sadly the concepts of African civs seem not to attract people’s interest, even though people in the forum have believed that Africa is in great need of new civilization. Maybe there’s something wrong with the way I stated it?

Even small feedback is worthy and welcome. I’m curious to know what people think of the War Bull as the first trash UU and animal UU in Castles, the Archer of the Eyes that inflicts LoS loss on enemies, the UT that can inflict bleeding status, the potential Somali tower rush, the Granary, The first civ with three UTs, and so on.

DynasticPlanet5 · August 2, 2024, 2:05pm

I get your feels. Its not just African civs either. Even 20 years ago this wasnt hot. Heck, I had a lot of civs back over a decade ago when Forgotten was fresh and yhose never took over or caught the eye of the FE team.

You pour hours, weeks, YEARS into civ crafting and then the unsung drown to a smidge of code!

I can offer my sympathy and empathy.

SamePorpoise303 · August 2, 2024, 7:23pm

Premised I know very little of Songhai I think a war bull as UU doesn’t do them justice, it feels a lot like a meme unit which is nothing new for sure for this game but maybe they could have something “cooler” like an heavy cataphract (with a particular gimmick based on their history) which were famous in West Africa? I don’t think I would be that excited to lead an army of raging bulls in their campaign, if you get what I mean, and it all may look a bit too ridiculous. That said I don’t know much about them so if they really relied a lot on them and win battles with them I guess it’s ok.

This is the only thing that didn’t convince me overall. As already said in another thread I’m particularly sold on the Nubian archer UU and its gimmick which seems so obvious now but I never came up with it.
The kanem Bornu imp tech I would have put it in castle age if they’re gonna miss the heavy camel upgrade but idk maybe it’s too strong before imp.

voidpointer131 · August 2, 2024, 10:05pm

My picks based solely on possible replacements for the TAK campaigns:

Fulanis
Hausa
Nubians
Somalis
Songhay
Swahilis/Bantus

(I know we’re realistically not getting all of these but I can hope for 4 out of 6.)

Also, can we have some changes like Romans instead of Byzantines, Italians and Spanish in the Tariq campaign? Thanks.

Additionally, we could replace the ethiopian campaign altogether.

voidpointer131 · August 2, 2024, 10:05pm

The archers of the eyes from the Saladin campaign are nubians.

HoopThrower · August 3, 2024, 12:49am

Bantu is, at best, some nonspecific linguistic term for a family of vaguely related languages. It’s nothing cultural and it’d make the old Indian civ look coherent. It was basically a term European explorers came up with to conjecture some language families. Apparently, it’s downright offensive to use the term in South Africa nowadays.

It’s a laughably bad idea for an umbrella civ. Just have Swahili or Mutapa or Kongo or whichever combo rather than a bizarre mega-civ.

SamePorpoise303 · August 3, 2024, 5:16am

Yes indeed, I made a thread only for that! They added a civ you can fit in three campaigns at best and they even forgot one of these three!

Yodit is more of a campaign against Ethiopia rather than of Ethiopia. She was part of a Jewish tribe so she could ideally get another civ but it’s a very long shot.

Indeed, that’s why I thought the damaging Los gimmick is a good way to portray them!

UpmostRook9474 · August 3, 2024, 9:10am

Historical reason: As far as I know, they trained herds of long-horned bulls in the imperial stables to charge at the enemy in battle. It shows that bull-charging might be a common strategy to the Songhai people, therefore they made imperial stables work for the bulls training. In the battle against Morocco, they still had over thousand of bulls charge first at the beginning of the battle. It was expected that the bulls would act as meat shields to withstand fire and disrupt enemy formations, ramming infantry, allowing the Songhai army to annihilate the enemy. Unfortunately, the bulls were unfamiliar and frightened by the loud noise of the firearms, and in turn charged the Songhai soldiers.
Game design reason: Having a bull as a unique unit could be a very attractive and interesting feature and identity. In fact, when I saw the mention about their bulls my eyes immediately got caught. The bull is the coolest thing to me during the developments of these civ concepts. I guess people would be immediately impressed by such a special civ and eager to try it. If the unique unit is just another heavily armored cavalry in Castles like Boyars, Cataphracts, Centurions, Konniks, Leitis…, that would be not surprising and special at first glance. Also, there is already the Lifidi Cavalry for the Kanembu/Kanuris which has very African flavor.
Balance reason: The civ was supposed to focus on an aggressive military, similar to the Magyars and Bulgarians, therefore at the beginning they didn’t have an economy bonus. The only economy bonus now was added after @TungstenBoar’s suggestion. This civ would have a really good Knight in the Castle age after the techs get researched, and the Elite Skirmisher is removed for that. Due to the lack of Elite Skirmisher, the War Bull could be played for countering archers in melee with no gold cost. So if the opponent using an archer civ successfully suppresses the Songhai’s cavalry, then the player can use War Bulls to struggle as long as having a Castle.

Hope the above three points can answer your doubts.

Thank you

It’s a good question. I think the transfer could be fine as they have the plate barding armor and Cima.
The UT is going to make the Camel trash, so the Camel could cost only 91 food, being similar to the Hussar but stronger against cavalry and weaker against archers. That could be pretty useful in the late game as having a combo of trash Camels + Hussars.

In my concepts, the Soninke could somehow cover the Fulanis. According to the Wikipedia, the Fulani were cattle-keeping farmers who shared their lands with other nearby groups, like the Soninke. They migrated eastward from very West Africa, passing through Soninke territory during the Middle Ages, until reaching Hausaland in the 15th century, and greatly influenced the history of the region in the following centuries. In other words, they are very for AoE3 in my opinion. Additionally, the Soninke now is a archer-focus civ so they indeed fit the style Fulanis could be like.

On the other hand, Hausa in the Middle Ages could be covered by the Kanembu/Kanuris. They share some common culture, like the lifidi armor, and during Kanem Bornu’s hetday they often controlled Hausaland.

“Bantu” as a term is unpopular in South Africa, mostly just because of modern political factors as far as I learned. The term was stigmatized by its use by the National Party governments and their supporters in the past, which means its unpopularity has nothing to do with their common language or their common culture. There is indeed a classification of Bantu as a language family in linguistics. For your reference, the Dravidians are a language family too.

I have no intention of continuing to debate the legitimacy of the term Bantu. Again and again I don’t want to dwell on this issue. To me, it is really just a placeholder. As you wish, any suitable noun can be the name of this civ. The name of civ is always not the most important thing to me, like they can be named Kanembu or Kanuris. My point is that they would be an umbrella until a very unlikely-happening the third new DLCs for the split, based on personal understanding of the devs’ style and their history and trade-offs with other potential civs.

I always hope your reply was discussing the design of this civ, like the bonuses, the anti-archer ranged melee UU and Shock Infantry, the three UTs, etc. no matter they are named Bantu, Kongolese, Swahili or other.

MatM1996 · August 3, 2024, 4:49pm

Yes, realistically, at most they will put 4 civs in sub-Saharan Africa and be thankful… Kongolese, Zimbabweans, Somalis and maybe Kanemians, Nubians or Ghanaians…

Yes, Hausa is in AoE 3 because of the Hausa kingdoms that were conquered by Usman Dan Fodio and the Sokoto Caliphate in the 19th century…you have to look for African kingdoms from the 15th century back in the timeline…

SamePorpoise303 · August 3, 2024, 6:12pm

You surely know better than me since I didn’t do my research so if they used bulls to such an extent then it’s fine. It’s just a bit weird maybe to see at first, it’s like if Tatars had only the flaming camel as UU and you would see armies of flaming camels instead of keshiks etc but again maybe just a reskin of the knight line for African civ would do the trick aesthetically.

voidpointer131 · August 4, 2024, 3:06am

Bantu is a subbranch of this wider language family, but the validity of the latter categorization is somewhat controversial. From what I understand the bantu expansion is well-established in african history even if the western perception is distorted.

(kinda funny how the forum censors an entire wikipedia link about a language family)

I don’t think they are related to the Soninke at all, but they seem to be related to the earlier Jolof.