That can be a good way to show the technological inferiority of Cumans!
That they havenât invented fire yet?
Kipchaks are really weak for their cost in post-imp. I donât see players having much success with the civ, and everyoneâs saying that they are pretty bad. If youâre having success with the civ, congrats, and I am glad for you, but the consensus is that theyâre not very good.
The civ shouldnât be good in post imp. They have a TC and Battering rams in Feudal Age. You should be closing out the game in Castle age or be prepared for inevitable suffering as youâve missed your window.
For the record, I think itâs insane that the Cumans keep getting pushed the way they are. All their bonuses to make them good early get complained about because âtheyâre too good earlyâ. Then a massive feudal TC build time nerf makes their early castle play a mid-to-late castle play, and then now weâre complaining that they need buffs because their endgame composition is missing Bracer.
Do you have any idea how hard it is to just keep afloat in the sea of stupid which is the balance of Cumans? They nerfed everything about this civ and the first thing we identify as something we want is âBut what if they were good in the lategame?â Idk, what if their early bonuses made absolutely any difference and they had a meaningful window to capitalize on said bonuses before they become irrelevant?
If I had my way with the civ, Iâd undo the Feudal TC training time nerf completely, for a thousand reasons but the first one being that thereâs no precedent for making a building construct slower prior to this change and thereâs no in-game descriptor that would tell you this is happening, so itâs practically a stealth nerf to the strategy for new players. Then, Iâd give them back the full effect of Steppe Husbandry. Then, Iâd pull out Plate Barding Armor. Thatâs what they should have done initially when the civ first hit, is rip the lungs out of the lategame cav army and force them into heavy siege to handle archers in the lategame or make them win it in Castle with Capped Ram + LC Swarm. We want to give this civ early bonuses and then refuse to make them win early and thatâs why this civ is â â â â â â .
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But you remember why this was nerfed?
Not because of economic advantage. TC construction time was nerfed because players just dush with it. And unlike Persians, Byzantines or Teutons, Cuman Feudal TC Drop was absolutly safe and dont delay your economy. Give it back, and this would return.
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That was not the reason it was nerfed, that was a hyper-aggressive, extremely annoying strat, but it was far from uncounterable. This douche would happen long after the player was capable of providing an army to kill it. The reason why Douches can be successful in general is because the only military available to stop it is Militia spam. In Feudal, you have archers, and towers, and Cumans are not special in dark age whatsoever, and should not be beating you to the punch.
Unless you wanted to literally just Dark Age Douche, click feudal, then drop your base TC again, but then the player that got Drushed can just relocate their TC and youâre out of stone for followups unless you mine more. Itâs not a clean or easy win by any stretch.
Hereâs viper doing this strat. He was 22 up (which all things considered, late by todayâs standard) and his opponent wasnât even up until the TC was 80%. Which is way too late for a reasonable feudal start on Arabia. So the opponent was going drush FC and this caught him with his pants down. Archers and a tower completely deny this. This was in November of 2019, they didnât get the TC time nerf until December.
Weâre on the same page then 
I have complained about the same thing regards balance changes elsewhere.
+1, good idea, at least one of their bonuses would finally be viable to actually use for something
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Incan Tower rush is also far from uncounterable. But low elos struggle extremely against strats like this. And the only way to counter this, is to get the same feudal time and build towers + archers in the followup.
If you make a drush you are doomed vs this if the tc is build in the same time as normal.
Well itâs debatable. I think you still lose a lot by the need of walking. But you are right, you lose much less than with the other douches. Plus you could possibly double the douche if you want to, making late towers almost useless against it.
Iâm for a tweak, but there must be a better way then reviving the cuman douche.
The Cuman Douche still exists. You just start it earlier. You douche in dark age, repair+click feudal in the douche TC, then drop your new TC once you reach Feudal. Drop it forward with the forward vills or back with your lumberjacks and berry vills, whatever suits you. The current nerf doesnât remove the Cuman Douche, and reverting it wonât bring it back. It never left.
The Cumans are just underpowered, and they arenât flavor-of-the-month anymore like they were on the release of DE being one of the two civs given access to Steppe Lancer.
I canât even believe this is the concern. What an utterly ridiculous notion. On the list of top ten concerns about the suggestion, this isnât on the list. Itâs a troll strat at best, and a throw at worst.
Well one more point to donât buff strats like this.
There are countless options to tweak the cuman eco so they donât fall behind as much.
Also the cuman boom is still the best in the game, it should be tweaked. Right now cumans have the potential to beat everything n castle age if they get away with the feudal tc. Especially with the market abuse I already showed. Viper also made a run where he idled the second tc before going up. I think if you find a way to combine these strats, cumans coul actually already be op.
I already made a testrun where I got a 17:40 uptime, but it was quite crowded. I placed a few early farms, got up later, skipped the feudal farm upgrades and made the gold mining instead. So instead of idling the tcs I just got up later and used the extra res for dark age farms.
Even if it was from eco perspective worse than the 18:20 up I achieved with ff 8 farms + market abuse, the faster uptime into mass knights was absolutely broken.
Idk if this would be possible in a real game, but the potential is there already. ANd this makes me very curious about attempts which just want to buff the cuman eco without any tradeoffs.
And expecially those which would bring lame strats back to the game.
Hereâs Ornlu going over the Cuman nerf when it happened. Note that he never even makes mention of the Douche potential because Douching was an absolute joke. Stop making yourself look bad by mentioning it. It isnât a thing. Itâs ridiculous.
Okay, so one, donât give them it for free? It costs them 275 wood and 100 stone to drop a TC where they want it, drop a tower 7 tiles out and wall it in, youâve netted a ton of resources in the trade and youâve hamstrung that new TC they were using to attempt to secure that resource.
Further, thatâs my point. They should have an advantage in feudal and castle age. All of their bonuses suggest this. So why do they have FU paladin? They shouldnât be winning in Imperial. A civ that has an insane boom and pressure game in feudal should not be killing players in imperial on the back of solid tech.
I want to hurt their lategame potential and gear them towards winning in the late castle age at the latest. When the opponent clicks up to Imperial, and before they get upgrades in Imperial, thatâs when the Cumans should be strongest, and attempt to close out the game in that window. To start, we have to acknowledge that itâs okay for Cumans to have an incredibly good feudal boom if itâs understood that if you take it late, they lose.
Thatâs never been the case. Theyâve always had an absurdly hard to punish eco thatâs extremely strong combined with their lategame prowess. I want to switch it up. The Devs wanted to nerf the earlygame eco and keep the lategame prowess, and thatâs resulted in multiple Kipchak nerfs (some of which had to be walked back), the Steppe Husbandry nerf, loss of Redemption, on and on. None of that was necessary, in my eyes, if they just accepted the idea that a civ thatâs good early probably should be incentivized to win early⊠and punished if they donât.
It is a thing because it can make newer players tilted and lose the faith in the game.
Besides I never encountered it, and I think I know how to counter, it should be quite easy IF you are already in feudal, I also have only one idea how to counter it (towers + archers) if the tc building time was 150 secs. With 270 you can easily just batter it down.
Thatâs the big difference. And For me itâs somewhat suspect how strongly you insist in that one change instead of tweaking their eco they donât get punished as much for normally adding the tc.
And for me I wouldnât mak any civ as one-sided as the cumans would bewith an unnerfed feudal tc and lategame prowess. Yes they should be able to build up the best early castle age eco, but just slightly better than the other known powerhouses - and donât fall back as hard as they do now. I also doubt that it could be even possible to make them anyhow balanced in the current game if they would be pushed to an âall in early castle age pushâ civ. Because this is the time where the games are usually decided.
I think that, at release, devs wanted cumans to be a goth-like civ on horses: no walls + perfusion-like tech (in castle ageâŠ). They just had to boom a bit before spamming you with horses. And remember that steppe lancer and steppe husbandry were OP at release. Cuman strategy was easy to perform.
Now their boom and spam are bad ⊠Maybe buffing those bonus a bit is enough.
I remember. I was making threads at the time telling the devs that theyâd done everything wrong. That they should have focused on giving Steppe Lancers a bigger weakness, not just nerfing all itâs strengths because it was totally useless after the changes. They also triple-hit the Cumans in that same patch with 45 extra seconds of TC build time, the Kipchak fire rate and arrow count, and the husbandry/civ ms bonus changes all at once. I said at the time that since they didnât do anything reasonable in this patch besides putting out the flames of angry players who no like cuman bad man that as a result of this change theyâd be nerfing Steppe Husbandry because it was way too good to pump FU hussars at that speed.
I said this in December of 2019. I donât know how many months are going to go by before people acknowledge I called the last year of Cumans changes because they fucked it up to start with and they refuse to go back and fix it. (civs are all so new still I called the Cuman Unique unit the Keshik, if youâre interested in the funny. That was the one slip up in the entire tirade though)
Four months later they gutted Steppe Husbandry, reducing the rate from 100% to 40%
Undo the TC nerf. Undo the Kipchak nerf. Undo Steppe Husbandry Nerf. Readjust the Steppe Lancer. Gut Plate Barding. Civ is fixed. Literally, all you need to do is undo a year and a half of doing unreasonable things with the civ, and do one reasonable thing, and weâre good.
I just decided to buff both cumans cavalry and rams in this way.
- Steppe husbandry additionally allows cavalry units to garrison in rams.
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My only problem with the idea of a civ only being viable in a single age, is that if you play tg and all pick random civ, and you happen to get one of these Castle Age only civs, your team is at a disadvantage.
I donât mind if a civ tapers off and becomes a bit weaker in Imp than average, but itâs a different story when a civ is essentially worthless.
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Yeah, thatâs not going to be the Cumans if they lost Plate Barding Armor. Theyâve got (nearly) a full infantry tree (only missing supplies) and a more than solid Siege tree (only missing BBC, HScorp, and Siege Engineers, the last one being the notable omission).
Thereâs no reason why the Cumans should have all this tech in Imp.
Okay, so if the civ is going to be pure trash in imp, at least they should exclude it from the random civ pool for team games
Keep paladins, remove last infantry armour and maybe siege onager
There is absolutely no grounds to argue this civ would be garbage in Imp with all the tools they currently have if they lost one.
They are the only civ in the entire game to have both Paladin and Siege Onager except the Celts and the Celt Paladin is lacking Plate Barding Armor and Bloodlines.
Sure, the Celt SO has Siege engineers, but the point is, the Cumans have an incredibly rare assortment of lategame tools and any insinuation that they donât lacks any reasonableness.