Danes design (v2)

[Jonasnee8581]

Hey, quick disclaimers:

No i did not know Danes (and Poles) where actually going to be added nor do i work for FE, this is just a reworked design of my old thread that i have been working a bit on since summer, and i think now it would make sense to post it so we can have a discussion about different unit, card and mechanic ideas. Never been a better point than now to post it.

Danes are a faction based on the northern kingdom of Denmark and its various possessions in the games period. It includes Norway, Iceland, the Duchies of Slesvig and Holstein and various other possessions around the world and has references to all of them. Denmark historically was a pioneer of many things, from standardisation of measures and guns to the first laws on archeology and development of geology, and even to some of the first hints of nationalism in the 1600 and 1700s. The Danes therefore include several mechanics and unique cards in reference to these aspects.

The faction focuses towards ranged and is particularly weak to cavalry in the early game.

Unique mechanics: dig site, Diaries and friskytter

Dig sites are mines that Danes can place on the map, they provide 50% gold and 50% experience, and starts out at 0.4 of each resource (by comparison regular mines are 0.6), both resources are upgraded by mine upgrades. You can gain them either by ####### ### site wagons from the homecity or by sending a homecity card allowing your explorer to build them for a small fee.

Dairies replaces livestock pens for Danes, you can only have 2 at any given time. After sending appropriate cards from the homecity any herdable gathering at Dairies will grant passive income. Denmark has access to cows to begin with but cannot train sheep

Friskytte, friskytte is one of Denmark’s unique units, they replace militiaman and are trained from the town center in batches, you can summon 5 a time per town center and they always are trained as a group of 5. They don’t lose hp over time but are weaker at base than colonial militia. They are first available in age 2. They shadowtech as you age up.

Friskytte:

Cost: 30 food 30 coin (so 150 food, and 150 coin for a batch), 1 pop

Hp: 120

Resist: 20% ranged

Speed: 4

Ranged: 20 dmg, 3.0 reload, 16 range

Melee: 5 dmg, 1.5 reload

Tags: infantry, light infantry, gunpowder infantry, ranged infantry

Unique cards:

Guerilla warfare (age 3): adds a 2x multiplier against light infantry and increases speed by +0.5.

Gøngehøvdingen (age 4): ships 20 Friskytte, Friskytte trains faster and can be trained from outposts but are still tied in limit to town centers.

Quirks

Only has access to a single factory from homecity. Historically the danish industry was mostly focused on ships and the agricultural sector, if you want a second factory you need to choose it as an age up option competing with other choices.

Specialised but strong cards. Similar to sweden a lot of danish buff cards will only buff 1 unit but will in return grant bigger bonuses than usual. Same applies to economic cards, they are unique and strong but also less omnipurpose.

Alliances. Each age denmark can send cards from 2 other european allies granting them a host of that faction’s units for a price in coin. 500 at age 2, 750 in age 3 and 1000 in age 4.

Semi unique age up mechanics: great people. Denmark ages up by choosing a great person from within 5 categories: admirals, artists, generals, scientists and politicians. Each option is named after a famous or great person and gives either resources, semi unique units or small upgrades, based upon that individual’s history.

High experience income from specialized economic buildings.

Units

Barracks:

Pikemen

Side note: should speak german

Unique cards:

Protestant pikes (age 3): +20% hp and +20% melee resist, changes their cost to coin instead of wood

Landsoldat (age 2)

A cheaper musketeer with worse melee stats

Cost: 65 food 25 coin, 1 pop

Hp: 150

Resist: 10% melee

Speed: 4

Ranged: 23, 3.0 reload, 12 range

Melee: 10, 1.5 reload, multiplier of 1.5x vs cavalry and 1.25x vs shock infantry

Tags: musketeer, heavy infantry, infantry, ranged infantry, gunpowder infantry.

Foot soldier scanian war (age 2)

Foot soldier start of the great northern war (age 3)

Landsoldater in the 1864 war (age 4 and 5)

Generally speaking the visual design should be trench coats with a coloured stripe running down across their body attaching to a pouch.

Unique cards:

National conscription (age 4): increases the cost to 75 and 35 coin, improves the stats by +2 range, +10% damage and HP and +10% ranged resist.

Tinsoldat (age 3): increase damage and hp by 20%

Skirmisher (guard unit: Ski infantri)

Side note: should speak norwegian

Unique cards:

snigskytte (age 3): gives a charge attack with extra range, multiplier vs heavy infantry and damage.

When upgraded to ski infantry instead of getting the usual +10% atk/hp they instead gain +1 speed.

Stables:

Hussar (guard unit: garderhusar)

Shares typical upgrade cards with Fodgarde.

When upgraded to garderhusar gain 10% range resist instead of the typical 10%dmg/attack.

Jutlander (age 3)

A though dragoon with strong melee and a charge attack

Cost: 120 food 90 coin, 2 pop

Hp: 250 (from age 2 stats)

Resist: 30% ranged

Speed: 7

Ranged: 22 dmg, 3.0 reload, 12 range, multiplier of 3x vs heavy cavalry, 2.25x vs shock infantry and 2x vs artillery

Melee: 20, 1.5 reload, same multiplier as ranged

Charge ability: changes tags to heavy cavalry instead of light, locked to melee, gains a 2x multiplier vs skirmishers and gain +0.5 speed. 10 seconds duration, 1 minute cooldown, global effect.

Tags: light cavalry, cavalry, ranged cavalry

age 3 look

age 5 look (to the right)

Artillery foundry:

Fodgarde (age 3)

Apex musketeer/grenadier combo, equipped with repeaters and grenades, can face any foe but is extremely expensive and weak to artillery and can be kited by skirmishers.

Cost: 150 food 80 coin, 2 pop

Hp: 300

Resist: 35% ranged, 35% melee

Speed: 4

Ranged: 25 dmg, 1.5 reload, 12 range

Melee: 25 dmg, 1.5 reload, multiplier of 3x vs heavy cavalry, 2.25x vs shock infantry.

Charge ability: throw a single grenade, lasts up to 10 seconds, cooldown: 40 seconds, global effect. Stats as follows:

20 siege dmg, 3 AOE, 3x vs infantry, 12 range.

Shares typical upgrades with hussars

Falcon

Culverin

Mortar

Espigol (age 3)

A Unique multishoot danish light artillery unit, it fires 5 shoots from each barrel, it starts with 1 barrel and then get 1 extra barrel with each upgrade instead of a damage boost.

Cost: 300 coin 100 wood, 4 pop

Hp: 200

Resist: 75%

Speed: 4 limbered, 3 unlimbered

Siege: 20 dmg (5), 5 reload, 26 range, 2x infantry.

Dock:

Fishing boat (should speak icelandic/faroese if possible)

Gun boat (age 2)

Replacing the caravel, the gunboat is weaker than the caravel but is cheaper. It fires forwards making it quicker to engage targets. Limited to 8 boats at any time.

Orlogsskib (age 2)

2 deck ships of the line replacing the galleon, limited to 3 ships, it is a more powerful version of the galleon.

Skruefrigat (age 4)

A steam powered screw frigate of the type used in the 2nd Schleswig war. They have more health and are slightly more agile than normal frigates. Limited to 2 ships.

Panserskib (age 4)

Based on the Danish ironclad Rolf Krake. It carries 2 turrets and functions as the danish monitor replacement, you can only produce 1 at any given time but it has more health and firepower than your typical monitor.

Unique homecity cards

Sandsvær silver mines (age 3): improves gather rate and yield from mines by +30%

Surveyor (age 2): allows your explorer to place Dig sites and improves his combat ability.

Count’s Feud (age 2, unique church card):

• Kirke ordinancen (age 2): churches now provide a 10% gather rate bonus to all villagers in a small area around the church, all economic buildings (estates, mills, Dairies and town centers) now cost 20% more. +1 limit to churches.

• Duke of Holstein (age 3, 1000 coin): sends 10 veteran doppelsoldners.

• German refugees (age 3, 500 food): ships 5 settler wagons and allows you to train settler wagons up to a max of 5.

Milking industry (age 4): Cows on Dairies now grant 1/1000 of their current resources as food per second. Cows can keep gathering from Dairies even when full, villagers tasked with gathering cows will still kill full cows gathering.

Holsteiner breed (age 1): Cows now have +50 max food and villagers gather 100% faster from cows.

Cow Trade (age 2): cows start with 100 extra food.

Danish fortification (age 4): sends a fort wagon, forts now have 30% more health.

Standardisation of calibres (age 3): artillery is now 30% cheaper.

Advancement of science (age 3): all economic upgrades (market, mills, plantations and capitol) are now 50% cheaper.

Danish foundry (age 4, infinite): sends a heavy cannon very fast.

North Atlantic whaling (age 1): Whales now also grant a small amount of food.

TEAM Østasiatisk kompagni (age 2): all asian allies receive 400 export, all african allies receive 400 influence, everyone else gets 400 coin.

Akan Allies (age 4, infinite, 1000 coin): sends 10 Akan Ankobia and upgrades them to guard.

3 age system (age 4): Dig sites now provide 50% more experience gather rate/yield, ##### # ### site prospecting wagons.

Indfødsretten (age 1): all age ups now cost 15% less.

Popular resistance (age 3): when your buildings (non wall) are destroyed they leave behind a friskytte.

Kronborg (age 4): ships a fort wagon, defensive structures (forts and outpost) now gives a small trickle of resources from every trade post within their range, 0.5 res/sec for forts and 0.25 res/sec for outposts. The resource matches what the trade post produces and gives experience from native posts.

Sergenter (age 3): all pikemen are transformed into halberdiers and replaces them as options in the barracks, all upgrades for pikemen also work for halberdiers.

Coalition warfare (age 1): all alliance cards cost 500 coin less.

Tyttebærkrigen (age 3): skirmishers can now gather from berry bushes at half the usual speed.

Alliance cards:

Alliance cards are supposed to be about twice as strong as typical unit shipments for their age, but as mentioned earlier cost coin to send similar to mercs.

AGE 2 (500 coin):

• British: sends 12 longbows
• Dutch: sends 9 halberds

AGE 3 (750):

• German/austria: sends 4 doppelsoldner and 4 warwagons
• Poland: sends polish cavalry (idk what the polish units will be, somewhere around 2000 res, 2 types of cavalry)

Age 4 (1000):

• Russia: sends 20 strellets, 8 cossacks and 5 cavalry archers
• France: sends 4 cuirassiers, 10 skirmishers and 4 grenadiers

Team Danish brigade (age 3, 750 gold): all teammates get a shipment of unique danish units worth 10 pop. Denmark gets a shipment of unique teammate units worth 10 pop.

Unique age ups

Admirals:

an admiral when chosen gives access to a ship Denmark otherwise doesn’t usually have access to and ships the unit, the limit of any of these ships is just 1.

(age 2) Niels Juel: sends 1 caravel and allows the training of 1 caravel.

(age 3) Peter Tordenskjold: sends 1 frigate and allows the training of 1 frigate.

(age 4) Steen Andersen Bille: sends 1 monitor and allows the training of 1 monitor.

(age 5) Edouard Suenson: sends 1 steamer and allows the training of 1 steamer.

Artists:

artist gives experience crates or straight up shipment points, allowing you to rapidly send shipments upon reaching a new age. Intended to be the “quick” option.

(age 2) Peder Palladius: sends 400 experience in crates.

(age 3) Ludvig Holberg: sends 1000 experience in crates.

(age 4) Hans Christian Andersen: sends 1 shipment.

(age 5) Søren Kierkegaard: sends 2 shipments.

Generals:

generals give a small amount of a single unit and provide a small bonus to these units.

(age 2) Daniel Rantzau: ships 5 pikemen and pikemen from now on have 10% extra melee resist.

(age 3) Ulrik Frederik Gyldenløve: ships 5 skirmishers, skirmishers now have 5% more range resist.

(age 4) Frederik of Hesse: ships 5 fodgarder, fodgarde grenade reload reduced by 10 seconds.

(age 5) Christian Julius De Meza: ships 10 landsoldats, landsoldat gain +1 dmg multiplier vs cavalry in melee.

Politicians:

politicians gives crates of resources for an immediate boost.

(age 2) Peder Oxe: 500 wood

(age 3) Johan Friedrich Struensee: 800 coin

(age 4) Christian Ditlev F. Reventlow: 1500 food

(age 5) N.F.S. Grundtvig: 20% to all gather rates.

Scientists:

scientists provide unique buildings or upgrades related to buildings.

(age 2) Tycho brahe: sends an observatory wagon which periodically grants experience crates.

(age 3) Niels Steensen: sends 3 prospector wagons for dig sites and improves the gatherrate from those by 20%.

(age 4) Ole Rømer: TEAM observatory wagon.

(age 5) Hans Christian Ørsted: sends a factory wagon, allowing you to have a second factory.

[OperaticShip743]

@Jonasnee8581

Milking industry (age 4): Cows on Dairies now grant 1/1000 of their current resources as food per second. Cows can keep gathering from Dairies even when full, villagers tasked with gathering cows will still kill full cows gathering.

Does it mean that something similar to this could be possible?:[Suggestion--rework] 🐄 <Double Purpose Cattle of Europe> 🐑
Could it also imply rework for European livestock farming?

[M00Z1LLA]

There are a lot of good ideas here but also some odd ones.

A focus on dairy cattle is a great idea since Holsteins are the typical dairy breed. You don’t necessarily need to make that involve a unique building though. Simply make it so they start with Cows enabled by default and those cows could be made to trickle food or coin like how African cattle trickle influence. The trickle could be locked behind a card at first with some kind of drawback too so cow booming isn’t too crazy. Maybe it gives them a trickle but decreases their maximum fatness (if it’s like influence where they trickle more when fat, this could actually be beneficial because they’d get to maximum faster).

I’m not sure what dig sites are supposed to be. Is that archaeology? If so, that’s kind of already covered by treasures. At most that kind of obscure cultural reference would make work as a card. If you want to work in some of their scientific achievements, I think your ideas relating to astronomy and observatories would be more appropriate. In this case these references might actually fit better into the Oldenburg royal house. Add in a Royal Observatory tech there that can replace some of the existing techs that would likely be moved to the Danish civ.

The most obvious role for Friskytter would be as a xbow replacement like State Militia. Why would you limit them to just a militia where they would be hardly used? Referencing Kalthoff repeaters by making them 1.5 RoF would also be a fitting way to make them more unique.

The unique units also seem very forced and backwards. You’ve relegated actually unique and distinct units like Ski Troopers to a royal guard skirm, but you’ve made obviously royal guard standard units a unique unit instead (Jutlander Dragoons). I also really don’t like faux unique musks that are just “soldier” translated into a different language. Both Landsoldat and Fodgarde are essentially that.

Some uniqueness for their heavy infantry could be achieved with unique cards and upgrades.

Danevirke - Allows heavy infantry to construct Outposts and Forts and gain a stat boost from nearby Walls.

Atgeir - Royal guard upgrade for Pikemen. Gives some reference to their Viking history.

[OperaticShip743]

@M00Z1LLA

You don’t necessarily need to make that involve a unique building though.

The truth is that I would like to see something less simplistic and more dynamic, like this:
​

[Jonasnee8581]

@M00Z1LLA

A focus on dairy cattle is a great idea since Holsteins are the typical dairy breed. You don’t necessarily need to make that involve a unique building though. Simply make it so they start with Cows enabled by default and those cows could be made to trickle food or coin like how African cattle trickle influence. The trickle could be locked behind a card at first with some kind of drawback too so cow booming isn’t too crazy. Maybe it gives them a trickle but decreases their maximum fatness (if it’s like influence where they trickle more when fat, this could actually be beneficial because they’d get to maximum faster).

Basically by limiting how many livestock pens one can have and limiting the passive income to animals penned to them i avoid scenarios where an ally just buys you 500 cows.

@M00Z1LLA

I’m not sure what dig sites are supposed to be. Is that archaeology?

it is both archaeology and geology, a reference to early pioneering within this fields by Denmark.

@M00Z1LLA

The most obvious role for Friskytter would be as a xbow replacement like State Militia. Why would you limit them to just a militia where they would be hardly used?

Because i don’t want the faction to operate a typical crossbow musketeer combo, i want the player to have to deal with relatively weak musketeers early on.

@M00Z1LLA

Referencing Kalthoff repeaters by making them 1.5 RoF would also be a fitting way to make them more unique.

So Historically the repeater was a very expensive weapon, only really operated by elite units, Friskytte are peasants who decide they didn’t wanna be Swedish.

@M00Z1LLA

You’ve relegated actually unique and distinct units like Ski Troopers to a royal guard skirm

the design went back and forward for me for a while, with the changing of how guard upgrades work i decided against them being a unique unit because i feel like the idea i had for them was too close to the US sharpshooter. originally i had them be a skirmisher type laser focused on countering heavy infantry, trading some basic stats for a higher multiplier.

@M00Z1LLA

but you’ve made obviously royal guard standard units a unique unit instead (Jutlander Dragoons).

What made Jutlanders interesting IRL was their effectiveness in a melee, i could not design such a unit without making it unique. They had to be unique, primarily as an effect of how dragoons as a whole are designed in the game.

@M00Z1LLA

I also really don’t like faux unique musks that are just “soldier” translated into a different language.

say hallo to Soldado for me. I mean this is an argument you could level against almost any unit, Landwher is basically the same, needle gunners are a fantasy name. Cassador basically just means “hunter”, a very generic European term for skirmishers.

it is the design differences here that makes them different, again building into the fact you don’t get crossbows, you have to win early game via mass.

we pretty much know we are going to get a Danish super grenadier of some type, might as well just use an interesting and real name, not like any unit in game atm shares the name.

also again it allowed me to make an interesting design unit, this time a very expensive super soldier.

My basic design idea is you have your relatively cheap musketeers as a backbone but then have to back them up with more specialized but also very expensive units.

[pwaopwao]

I think it’s a good topic to help devs generate ideas. Some comments:

@Jonasnee8581

Only has access to a single factory from homecity. Historically the danish industry was mostly focused on ships and the agricultural sector, if you want a second factory you need to choose it as an age up option competing with other choices.

I think the Polish situation of lack of factories is similar, so an idea might be that the card that sends a Factory for the Danes, Poles, Italians and Maltese can be sent 2 times, but in exchange these civs can only have one factory at a time. This card could be called something like “Magnates” and you would need some other card to make up for the lack of a factory or something. The problem would be with the players who complain about Euro civs with only one factory…

@Jonasnee8581

Alliances. Each age denmark can send cards from 2 other european allies granting them a host of that faction’s units for a price in coin. 500 at age 2, 750 in age 3 and 1000 in age 4.

The theme of trade alliances with other countries seems to me to be something important that should be represented for the Danes. For example, they benefited greatly by offering neutral trade to nations at war, that is, while the other countries were fighting among themselves, the Danes offered them the service of transporting cargo in exchange for payment, which worked well since the European nations did not have problems with the Danes nor did they see them as a threat or competition (with the exception of the Swedes). This is how the Danes made a lot of profit just by transporting cargo for others, as if they were a shipping company. The Danes knew how to take advantage of their status as a minor power.
There is also the fact that the Danes practiced the Triangular trade, charged tolls to pass through the Øresund Strait (to enter or leave the Baltic Sea), early promoted free trade and economic liberalization in the country, and tried to maintain good relations with any country other than Sweden (its biggest rival). The Danes also sometimes received financial subsidies from other countries for various reasons (This is related to maintaining the balance of powers).
This is why in my Danish civilization mod I gave so much importance to trade alliances, so I made this their economic bonus and applied it in the age ups.

You can read more about this in the Danish India article and its references.

@M00Z1LLA

Danevirke - Allows heavy infantry to construct Outposts and Forts and gain a stat boost from nearby Walls.

Atgeir - Royal guard upgrade for Pikemen. Gives some reference to their Viking history.

Neither the Danevirke nor the Atgeir were used by the Danes during the AOE3 timeframe, these are elements from the Viking era and would be more appropriate to use them in AOM.

[M00Z1LLA]

@Jonasnee8581

Basically by limiting how many livestock pens one can have and limiting the passive income to animals penned to them i avoid scenarios where an ally just buys you 500 cows.

They changed how livestock claiming works when TAR was released to avoid this. I’m pretty sure you can only claim up to your build limit from an ally, and then they cease to switch sides. The only way you can go over your limit is claiming them from an enemy player.

@Jonasnee8581

Because i don’t want the faction to operate a typical crossbow musketeer combo, i want the player to have to deal with relatively weak musketeers early on.

I feel like Danes are not the civ for this. All their best potential unique units are some type of light infantry.

@Jonasnee8581

So Historically the repeater was a very expensive weapon, only really operated by elite units, Friskytte are peasants who decide they didn’t wanna be Swedish.

Fair enough, though they do fit the time period. I would at least like to see it as a card that boosts fire rate.

@Jonasnee8581

the design went back and forward for me for a while, with the changing of how guard upgrades work i decided against them being a unique unit because i feel like the idea i had for them was too close to the US sharpshooter. originally i had them be a skirmisher type laser focused on countering heavy infantry, trading some basic stats for a higher multiplier.

If you have Friskytter as their standard light infantry unit you could get away with Ski Troopers being in a much more niche role. Maybe some kind of counter-skirm or partial counter skirm. With the light infantry role covered, you could get creative and give them something like the Scout Promotion. Really all that would be a given is they should be kind of speedy.

@Jonasnee8581

What made Jutlanders interesting IRL was their effectiveness in a melee, i could not design such a unit without making it unique. They had to be unique, primarily as an effect of how dragoons as a whole are designed in the game.

Not necessarily. Royal guard upgrades all do something unique now. It could do something like give them a melee multiplier vs all cav instead of just heavy cav and there you’ve got a melee focused Dragoon.

@Jonasnee8581

say hallo to Soldado for me. I mean this is an argument you could level against almost any unit, Landwher is basically the same, needle gunners are a fantasy name. Cassador basically just means “hunter”, a very generic European term for skirmishers.

Soldado is exactly what I’m talking about, it’s terrible. The made up units are one of the biggest problems with trying to fit an entirely 19th century civ into a game that starts in the Renaissance. Fortunately Denmark doesn’t have that problem so you don’t have to make stuff up.

Landwehr is is almost as vague, but still slightly more specific to certain units, and much, much more famous.

Needle Guns are absolutely a real thing and were famously used by the Prussians. They also aren’t a unique unit, just enhanced skirms.

Calling light infantry units “hunter” is the norm since that’s what they evolved out of. Cassador, Jaeger, Chasseur, etc. English is actually abnormal for not doing that.

[M00Z1LLA]

@pwaopwao

@M00Z1LLA

Danevirke - Allows heavy infantry to construct Outposts and Forts and gain a stat boost from nearby Walls.

Atgeir - Royal guard upgrade for Pikemen. Gives some reference to their Viking history.

Neither the Danevirke nor the Atgeir were used by the Danes during the AOE3 timeframe, these are elements from the Viking era and would be more appropriate to use them in AOM.

Both were, quite a lot actually.

It’s right in the first paragraph of what I linked. The Danevirke was used in both Schleswig Wars.

Atgeirs were the signature weapon of Icelanders until at least the mid 1600s. The Danish crown was afraid of a rebellion breaking out there, so they armed them with only atgeir to defend from pirates, but not more advanced weapons that could be used by insurgents. Back on the mainland everyone else was also using halberds at this time so I don’t see why Denmark would be any different.

The one change I’d make is that they should be royal guard Halberdiers instead of Pikemen. In that case Danes probably don’t even need Pikemen at all.

[pwaopwao]

Please re-read the Danevirke article carefully, especially the part where it is precisely mentioned that it was not used or that it was used very poorly during the Schleswig Wars (notorious is the Evacuation of Danevirke). The important and strong elements are the ones that should be used to represent a civ, not the ones that are misused.

A modern-era Halberd is not a Viking-era Atgeir, the latter has a shape more similar to a Bill or Glaive, and instead the Modern Halberd consists more of an ax blade topped with a spike. Both weapons should not be confused even if they have similar purposes. There are many different types of polearms with different shapes and names.

[M00Z1LLA]

@pwaopwao

re-read the Danevirke article carefully

It describes it as “emotive nationalist symbolism”. It is clearly something of great importance to Danes that continued to be of critical military importance for almost 1000 years. When we finally get the Danish civ if there is no reference to the Danevirke, I’ll eat my hat.

@pwaopwao

A modern-era Halberd is not a Viking-era Atgeir

They are synonyms. Halberd includes a wide variety of weapons that includes Atgeir. The weapons used by the Danes and Icelanders in the 1500s can be called both.

[Bleed]

@Jonasnee8581

What made Jutlanders interesting IRL was their effectiveness in a melee, i could not design such a unit without making it unique. They had to be unique, primarily as an effect of how dragoons as a whole are designed in the game.

Why not remove the Hussar’s royal guard upgrade and make the Jutlander Dragoon a unique upgrade that gives the unit significantly better melee damage and multipliers? Turn it into a tougher Chevauleger.

@Jonasnee8581

say hallo to Soldado for me. I mean this is an argument you could level against almost any unit, Landwher is basically the same, needle gunners are a fantasy name. Cassador basically just means “hunter”, a very generic European term for skirmishers.

The precedent is there, after all. I do wonder how they translate these simple names into other languages though.

[M00Z1LLA]

@Bleed

Why not remove the Hussar’s royal guard upgrade and make the Jutlander Dragoon a unique upgrade that gives the unit significantly better melee damage and multipliers? Turn it into a tougher Chevauleger.

Because units like that break the counter system by being able to stomp on skirms. They eventually added a x0.6 vs light infantry for chevys, but Royal Dragoons still have no multi to temper them.

[MonsieurMoustache]

Honestly one of the reasons I didn’t want danish and poles was my expectation that they would have the old politician age up system, but I do love the alliances one, it gives a bigger variety of bonuses and is more historically rich, so if the devs give the new civs that then I’m a happy aoe3 player

[M00Z1LLA]

The devs are pretty set on conflating geography with age up type so you’re probably going to be disappointed. If I remember correctly, they said something about not doing Italy or Prussia as federal age ups because they have to use the European system.

[pwaopwao]

The problem is that the devs are running out of ideas regarding the bonuses that civilizations have, for example, there are already several civs whose economic bonus is related to a building that generates resources (Dutch Banks, Chinese Porcelain Tower, Japanese Shrines, Swedish Torps, Incan Kanchas, Mexican Haciendas, Italian Lombards, etc.), there are other civs that simply receive free settlers (British, Ottomans, Indians, Italians, etc.), there are civs that get cheap or free units, and since there is not much left to invent, especially for European civs, there are civs with bonuses somewhat strange like the Maltese.

The thing is, staying stuck in a certain design template can result in repetitive and boring bonuses, and going outside the box can bring original and fun bonuses, and granting unique age ups to new civs can be a good alternative.

[OperaticShip743]

@M00Z1LLA

Because units like that break the counter system by being able to stomp on skirms. They eventually added a x0.6 vs light infantry for chevys, but Royal Dragoons still have no multi to temper them.

It could be a unit limited by shipments, like the nizam.

[M00Z1LLA]

There’s still room for other bonuses whether or not the devs are good at it. I’d say factory houses are a bad design that’s overused but Italy’s villagers from techs is quite unique and interesting.

The Danish straits control trade through the Baltic so something that mimics their trade customs could work. Coin crates with each shipment would be a good proxy of that. A free shipment with each age up could also mimic that, but that may be a bit too strong.

WoL went with Ox Carts as a unique economic unit that’s also a nod to AoM. This could be a very interesting unit that works like a gatherer who can also be expended to construct buildings. They could combine villagers, livestock, and wagons into one unit. They could start with “fatness” equivalent to 100 wood, and their gathering could increase their fatness rather than add to your resource stockpile. Whatever fatness level they are at would dictate what building they could make. That would let you use them to gather at the rate of hunting and then build something that costs wood which would be a very interesting civ bonus. Later on they could be given the ability to turn into crates to let you convert all kinds of resources.

Having a strictly beneficial bonuses is also not the only way to give uniqueness to civs. They could have weaknesses imposed instead. For example, a civ could train villagers more slowly than normal to offset another economic bonus or stronger than average military. This would fit for civs like Sweden or Prussia that had historically small populations relative to the size of their army.

[Bleed]

@M00Z1LLA

A free shipment with each age up could also mimic that, but that may be a bit too strong.

A free TC with each Age-Up does nothing to break the Portuguese in Age II, but it’s still more mistake-forgiving than a free shipment. You can always send the wrong shipment at the wrong time. A Town Center can be placed ANYWHERE on the map and it’ll still benefit you, even marginally, unless you’re cramming them all in closely enough that they touch.

Yes, this could facilitate a nasty semi-FF by sending 700 Coin and a unit shipment to defend the Age-Up, but plenty of civs can stack a second shipment early (looking at you, United States) in Commerce Age. That free shipment being busted depends ENTIRELY on what Danes will have access to sending in Age III. Possibly Age IV in team games. You can also of course impose a shipment curve penalty.

[pwaopwao]

@M00Z1LLA

The Danish straits control trade through the Baltic so something that mimics their trade customs could work. Coin crates with each shipment would be a good proxy of that. A free shipment with each age up could also mimic that, but that may be a bit too strong.

Receiving coins with each shipment is already a characteristic that the Spanish have (I understand that you mean that they can receive coins with each shipment by default, but it is very similar), and receiving a shipment with each age is not very different from receiving XP books with each age like the USA and MEX, or the Spanish bonus of receiving shipments for less XP. Similar bonuses can be repeated, but it is not ideal.

Receiving more shipments does not make much historical sense either, the Danes had problems supporting their colonies, there are notorious cases such as that of the colony of Tranquebar (Danish East India Company) that spent 29 years without receiving a single Danish ship (1640 - 1669 ). The colony managed to survive well thanks to the ability of its inhabitants, piracy, making deals with other countries, and being heavily fortified (Fort Dansborg). This added to the fact that the Danes built many castles both in their country and in their colonies, it gave me the idea that the Danes can receive a castle with each age, which I implemented in my Danish Civilization mod.

I also prefer to keep the colonial emphasis on base bonuses rather than the Country (For example the Danes in WOL receive “Golden Ages” each age, something that has nothing to do with the colonies, but this is okay in WOL because it has a different theme/focus). I also don’t like fantasy mechanics, like WOL’s Danish Anchorage (Dock), which freezes enemy ships… this would be something more appropriate for AOM.

@M00Z1LLA

WoL went with Ox Carts as a unique economic unit that’s also a nod to AoM. This could be a very interesting unit that works like a gatherer who can also be expended to construct buildings. They could combine villagers, livestock, and wagons into one unit. They could start with “fatness” equivalent to 100 wood, and their gathering could increase their fatness rather than add to your resource stockpile. Whatever fatness level they are at would dictate what building they could make. That would let you use them to gather at the rate of hunting and then build something that costs wood which would be a very interesting civ bonus. Later on they could be given the ability to turn into crates to let you convert all kinds of resources.

The Danes having Ox Carts would seem like a good idea to me, as long as the historical Danes in the game’s timeframe actually used them prominently as part of their economy. Ox carts were used widely throughout the world, and I don’t know if the Danes really stood out in their use above the rest of the countries. That the Vikings have ox carts in the AOM is not a justification for the Danes to have them, and mistakes should not be repeated such as giving Organ Guns to the Portuguese in AOE3 and then giving them again in AOE2, something that It makes no historical sense in either case.

@M00Z1LLA

Having a strictly beneficial bonuses is also not the only way to give uniqueness to civs. They could have weaknesses imposed instead. For example, a civ could train villagers more slowly than normal to offset another economic bonus or stronger than average military. This would fit for civs like Sweden or Prussia that had historically small populations relative to the size of their army.

This could work if designed well, but there are already civs with weaknesses to compensate for their bonuses, such as the Germans (and other civs) who need more XP to get shipments. The Dutch also have a similar layout to this (Less Settlers, but they have banks… that you have to build and are expensive). It would also be simpler to design a civilization that doesn’t have base economic bonuses, but has bonuses in other areas, like the Maltese.

[M00Z1LLA]

@pwaopwao

already a characteristic that the Spanish

Fair point, this kind of bonus may work better for a different civ with a different resource that’s more distinct from Spain. Although Spanish Gold is more potent when combined with Spain’s faster shipments, and there are other similar cards like Jesuit Influence.

@pwaopwao

Danes had problems supporting their colonies

I’m referring to their control of the straits and that impact on shipping in the home country. In that regard it does fit. But extra crates or shipments are rather boring bonuses. I think ripping off Ox Carts from AoM and WoL is the most interesting way to go.

@pwaopwao

I don’t know if the Danes really stood out in their use above the rest of the countries.

They’re not particularly notable in Denmark per se, however they were used heavily in areas where there was significant Scandinavian settlement such as Minnesota. Ox Carts were ubiquitous in the Red River Colony and Babe the blue ox comes from there too.

@pwaopwao

That the Vikings have ox carts in the AOM is not a justification for the Danes to have them

I’d strongly disagree with this. With AoM coming out at the same time as this DLC it would be great to have some references and Easter eggs in the equivalent civs. Danes also have the same heritage that inspired Ox Carts for the Vikings (Auðumbla and colonies full of muskoxen). I agree civs shouldn’t get obviously wrong things like Organ Guns just because another civ in the series has them, but for more neutral elements like Ox Carts tie ins with the other games in the series is a pretty good justification.