Denmark and Poland is coming now

They weren’t just mercenaries, the Poles were fighting alongside France because they saw it as the best way for them to liberate Poland. But when they were transferred to a conflict in a far away colony that would have no impact in their goal of Polish liberation they decided to defect to Haiti and assist them in gaining freedom. Plenty of other revolutions are grounded in nothing more than a country having cultural or historical influence in a region (German Venezuela, Italian Argentina, etc), so owning the territories in rebellion is not a requirement.

And Malta. It could replace Hungary which has zero Maltese connection.

The Schleswig war was a war of German conquest, not a movement to create an independent Schleswig-Holstein. If you’re going to make that a revolution you might as well make a Scanian revolution based on the territory seized by Sweden.

I fail to see what an Iceland revolution would provide that a Norway one does not. You’re just throwing it in to meet your arbitrary criteria for 5 revolutions per civ. I think it would be perfectly fine to have 3-6 revolutions per civ. You could shift a few to different ages and flesh them out a bit more if it gets a bit too crowded for civs with more options.

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The Kingdom of the Two Sicilies (southern Italy) was significantly different from the rest of Italy. The fact that the Maltese who were a vasal of Sicily are a full civ instead of Sicilians is weak.

Therefore, if you add Sicily (or the Kingdom of Two Sicilies) as one of the options of the State Age Up mechanic, I think it should offer much more. Another option is to isolate Kingdom of Sicily and Kingdom of Naples for earlier Ages and add the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies to Age 5.

Viking units :muscle:t2:

Klein-Venedig offers a solid case for Gran Colombia as an option for the Germans. Its legitimacy is qual to what US is to the Swedes. But many other of them are far-fetched, such as simply citing large numbers of immigrants as justification for expediency. They should be replaced as soon as better options become available.

The reason why Haiti serves the Polish civilization is not enough in my opinion. If you’re emphasizing that the Poles fighting for the place where they are is a valid reason, then Hungary would definitely be a better option.

I don’t think this is too much of a problem. I have also said that it is de facto Revolutionary Germany.
Compared with other far-fetched options, the fact that the local Germans rebelled against the Danish rulers is perfectly suitable to be reflected through the revolurion mechanisc. Obviously much better than the Haitians taking up arms against the Poles.

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You’ve got things entirely backward. When you revolt, you are representing the revolutionaries, not the metropole. It’s not Haitians rebelling against Poland, it’s Poles taking up arms with the Haitians. In my opinion, it’s more far fetched to have civs that revolt into an entirely alien hostile faction like Malta → Barbary States. The Poles in Haiti have an enduring legacy that more than justifies them as a revolution far more than “Polish Hungary” or anything like that.

There would have been no “rebellion” without an imminent/ongoing German invasion. It was essentially local collaborators working with foreign occupiers, not a legitimate uprising. If Germany got split into Austria and Prussia and each of them had a revolution to form Germany then maybe you could argue that it would be economical to share the revolution with Denmark. But to make that extremely tenuous connection for a one off revolution for Denmark is not at all worth it.

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It’s not Mexicans, Chileans, and Peruvians rebelling against Spain, it’s the Spanish taking up arms with Mexicans, Chileans, and Peruvians. Ok, I learned.

It is said to be a reference to Hospitaller Tripoli.
Clearly, it is the least far-fetched of Maltese’s options.

I don’t know any Poles, but I’d rather believe that they value their historical heritage with Hungary more than with Haiti. From various sources on the Internet, it can be seen that the Poles and Hungarians have a long history of supporting each other against the Germans and Russians.

As I said, the most accurate way to reflect the Poles helping the Haitian revolution is to have a card that ships Polish units on the Haitian deck.

Apparently you’re sticking with your Haitian option for the Poles. In my opinion, this is already a matter of preference, because I just think it is a far-fetched option anyway, although perhaps a little better than some far-fetched options of other existing civs. Every one can have his taste. I don’t think it makes sense to continue discussing this point.

You’re just trying to be facetious by wording it like that. The faction you play is a colonial offshoot of Spain. When you revolt as Mexicans, Chileans, and Peruvians you are Mexicans, Chileans, and Peruvians, not Spain anymore. If you weren’t, you’d keep your home city and have to fight the rebellion. The Poles that joined in the Haitian revolution became Haitians too and their descendants live there to this day.

What does Polish opinion of Hungary have to do with anything? The Haitians hold the Poles in high regard because of their contribution to the revolution. The current foreign relations of Poland have nothing to do with anything. @MUTYLATOR5553 is Polish, I’m sure he could weigh in on which option makes most sense for a Polish revolution.

I know it references their small possessions in the area, and just like Portugal and Italy, it’s fairly weak, because there was not any kind of integration of the Berbers into those societies. At least France and the Ottomans settled the region or had a compatible culture. But I’d still say it is passable since those civs don’t have many other options.

Hungary has no connection to Malta so anything is better than that. Really the only reasonable Malta revolts would be Greece, Barbary States, and Romania (had a Maltese ruler at one point).

Leaving Haiti aside. I just want to tell you that the Poles and Hungarians have fought side by side with each other since the Middle Ages, not just the current foreign relations. If the cooperation of Poles and Haitiansis to be considered valid, then Hungary can definitely get an option in Poles’ revolution as well. That’s all.

Remove the US for the Poles, and you’ll have Haiti/Hungary, Romania, Livonia, Gold Coast and Zaporizhian Host for the Poles.

I consider give them Egypt, as Maltese immigrants who followed Napoleon to Egypt clashed with the local Egyptian communities.

Yes they’re close, even united several times in the 14th and 15th centuries, but favourable relations don’t justify a revolution. You’d need significant Polish involvement in Hungarian independence movements to justify that. I don’t think there’s anything proportional to the Polish contribution to the Haitian revolution until maybe the 1956 revolution.

Egypt is a bit of a stretch for Malta. Especially if it is just based on a French expedition and France doesn’t even have them as an option. Realistically, Egypt was defacto independent and could even be a full civ, not just a revolution for a couple of civs.

Dude, you might as well check out the Hungarian and Polish fights for independence section in the link.

The French and Polish soldiers of about 5,000 had a high mortality rate, many were killed fighting the Haitians, and many more died of disease. Some of the Polish soldiers who survived joined Haiti, and of their personel will. About 400 to 500 Poles remained in Haiti after the war. The addition of the Poles did help the Haitians, but it did not affect the Haitians’ ultimate victory.

Several Hungarian attempts at revolution were supported materially and emotionally by Polish society, the royal family, and tycoons, including arms, money, and shelter. After the failed uprising of 1711, about 3,000 people fled to Poland. The Hungarians who remained in Poland supported the resistance to the Russian partition. The thousands who fled Poland and Lithuanians because of the failure in 1830-1831 later took part in many of the revolutions of 1848, including a Polish Legion comprising 2090 infantry and 400 cavalry fighting for Hungary under the leadership of a Polish general. After the failed revolt against Russia in 1863, Hungary took in 4,000 Polish refugees. The relationship between the two sides is centuries old and is nation to nation rather than just personal will.

If cooperation is also considered a valid reference, I see no reason why Hungary is worse than Haiti. Frankly, if we agree on Romania, Livonia, Gold Coast and Zaporizhian Host, then I support Hungary as the fifth and probably last option.

I also don’t mind the French getting Egypt as the fifth, even though I think an Algeria or Vietnam based option would be interesting too. Algeria can be reformed from the existing Barbary States, with a greater emphasis on Berbers rather than Corsairs.

The Indonesian revolution actually symbolizes the Java War (1825-1830) between prince ########## and the VOC…

The Java War (Javanese: ꦥꦼꦫꦁꦗꦮ) or ############ War** (ꦥꦼꦫꦁꦢꦶꦥꦤꦼꦒꦫ) was fought in central Java from 1825 to 1830, between the colonial Dutch Empire and native Javanese rebels. The war started as a rebellion led by [Prince ###################################################### a leading member of the Javanese aristocracy who had previously cooperated with the Dutch.

The rebel forces laid siege to Yogyakarta, a move that prevented a quick victory. This gave the Dutch time to reinforce their army with colonial and European troops, allowing them to end the siege in 1825. After this defeat, the rebels continued fighting a guerrilla war for five years.

The war ended in a Dutch victory, and Prince ########## was invited to a peace conference. He was betrayed and captured. Due to the cost of the war, Dutch colonial authorities implemented major reforms throughout the Dutch East Indies to ensure the colonies remained profitable.

History

The direct cause of the Java War was the decision by the Dutch to build a road across a piece of ############ property that contained his parents’ tomb. Longstanding grievances reflected tensions between the Javanese aristocracy and the increasingly powerful Dutch. Javanese aristocratic families were resentful about Dutch laws restricting their rental profits. The Dutch, meanwhile, were unwilling to lose influence over the Yogyakartan court.

Dutch influence also affected the cultural dynamics of Java. A devout Muslim, ########## was alarmed by the increasingly relaxed religious observance at court. This included the rising influence of Christian Dutch colonists and the court’s pro-Dutch leanings. Among ############ followers, the war was described as a jihad “both against the Dutch and the murtad or apostate Javanese.”[2]

Following a common colonial strategy, the Dutch worked to exacerbate a succession crisis for the Yogyakartan throne. ########ro was the eldest son of Hamengkubuwono III, but his right to succeed was disputed because his mother was not the queen. ############ rivals were his younger half-brother Hamengkubuwono IV and his then-infant nephew Hamengkubuwono V, who were supported by the Dutch.

Hostilities

The Java War began 21 July 1825 when Prince ########## raised the standard of revolt on his estate at Selarong.[3] The rebel forces were successful in the early stages of the war, taking control of central Java and besieging Yogyakarta. The Javanese population was generally supportive of Prince ############ cause.

However, as the war persisted, Prince ########## had difficulties retaining his army. By contrast, the Dutch colonial army was able to fill its ranks with indigenous troops from Sulawesi, and eventually received reinforcements of European troops from the Netherlands. The Dutch commander [General de ########################################################### ended the rebel siege on Yogyakarta on 25 September 1825.

Prince ########## then began an extensive guerrilla war. Until 1827, the Dutch army struggled to protect the Javanese hinterland, so they bolstered their territorial defense by deploying mobile detachments of colonial troops, based in small forts throughout central Java. It is estimated that 200,000 died over the course of the conflict, including 8,000 Dutch.[4]

The rebellion ended in 1830, after Prince ########## was tricked into entering Dutch-controlled territory near Magelang, under the pretense of negotiations for a possible ceasefire. He was captured and exiled to Manado, and then to Makassar, where he died in 1855.[5]

Aftermath

Due to the Dutch forces’ heavy losses, the colonial government decided to enlist African recruits in Gold Coast: the so-called “Belanda Hitam” (“Black Dutchmen”), to augment its East Indian and European troops.

The war was detrimental to Dutch finances; thus, the pacification of Java enabled the colonial government of the Dutch East Indies to implement Cultuurstelsel (“The Cultivation System”) in Java without any local opposition in 1830. Overseen by the new governor general, Johannes van den Bosch, this cultivation system required that 20% of village land be devoted to growing cash crops for export at government rates.

Alternatively, peasants had to work in government-owned plantations for 60 days of the year. Dutch colonialists and their native allies amassed enormous wealth through this forced-export system. The profits from the colony more than repaid the Netherlands for the war, and made the Dutch East Indies self-sufficient.

They will arrive at some point…

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Poland being a cavalry civ is pretty obvious. Any thoughts on Denmark gameplay wise? I’d assume Denmark would be good on water, but I don’t actually know a lot of the Danish military

Historically most of the Danish military was comprised of German mercenaries. When it comes to their own units, they often used light infantry like militias for example, so I guess the Danish civ could focus on ships, light infantry and mercs.

The Danish navy weren’t really anything of note. They were normally outgunned by neighbours (including Sweden) and undermanned compared to their merchant navy.

In-game they should just have a standard Euro navy, with the exception of Gunboats, which could possibly cover the Monitor type with Morterbarkasserne (small mortar boats) and maybe Kanonjollen (small cannon/howitzer gunboats) instead of Caravels.

Actually, the Danes won most of their naval engagments against the Swedes. It’s only when the dutch were involved, that they lost. The destruction of the Danish fleet by the british in the early 19th was a terrible coup for the Danes.

True, though I’m waiting for a Norwegian to bring forward that it was them doing most of that work :wink:

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Is this post about the Poland and Denmark leak? Or to make suggestions about revolutions in general and discuss about Ukraine? I say this because I think the post is straying from the topic and many things discussed above should be a new post or go into an existing one. Sorry, but it’s hard to follow the original topic with all that…

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I believe the post is about the potential addition of Poland and Denmark. They were first spotted as Revolution flag images recently then quickly withdrawn which makes it all the more suspicious! Of course, this is all speculative so I guess the topic can be fairly broad.

Some people believe that these will actually become Revolutions whilst others think that as legit revolutions, apart from Russian revolting (rather, Uprising) to Poland, they’re all rather tenous and stretch to somewhat fictious revolution options.

With that in mind, there are others that believe that these are more likely to be full-blown civs as they’re popular choices (though many also would argue some Asian civs are more deserving currently!) and the aforementioned revolution choices are rather narrow for them to just be Rev civs.

The mention of Ukraine (Ukrainian or rather Zaporozhian Cossacks who were a fiercely independent proto-state within Polish territory) and Haiti (linked via the 5,200 Polish Legionaries Napoleon sent to supress the Haitian revolution whom many defected to help the Haitians), among a few more suggestions are all on topic as it’s just speculation on Revolutions for these potential civs.

The post about Indonesian is not really on topic, mind.

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I think both Haiti and Hungary are great options for revolution. Many Poles participated in the Hungarian revolution in 1848 - among them Józef Bem who is a national hero in Poland and Hungary - and even Turkey (btw he commanded in the battle of Ostrołęka during the November Uprising - a city near me). Most Poles like Hungarians and I think they would even like the possibility of a Hungarian revolution playing Poland - seriously.

In the case of Haiti, it is definitely less popular in Poland (There is only a very brief pronoun about it in history class, it’s more focused on the “glorification” of Napoleon Bonaparte)… Most Poles do not even know that Poles had a significant impact in the independence of Haiti and that they were distinguished there. I think that it could have an educational value primarily for Poles.

I love the wording ''distinguished", as they were one of the few white ethnic groups to be spared by the Dessalines genocide.