Aren’t there actually a bunch of Native American groups in the southeastern US whose ancestors would have been part of the Mississippian cultural sphere? People like the Natchez and Chickasaw, for example. Referencing them might help with “filling in the blanks” when reconstructing a Missippian civilization for the game, I think.
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Great. That’s what I’m saying. The design shouldn’t include horses and gunpowder. Now we just have to figure out how a confederation without an organized army and metal can win against the aztecs. Maybe give them an infantry unit with bonus against other infantry.
No, what I’m sying is incas or any other native civ don’t get horses and gunpowder. And shouldn’t.
Mapuches shouldn’t as well. Giving native civs horses will turn them into aoe3 civs.
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Your whole argument focused on the so-called “golden era”, and now you are not willing to follow it.
If their heyday had used horses at the time AoE2 covering, they could have horses in the game.
The Horse Warriors would be the unique iconic identity of Mapuche as the only New World civ having horsemen in the game. Fun and accurate.
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No, I’m saying the civs should be designed around their strongest years. That doesn’t mean they HAVE to get horses or gunpowder.
In my first example, Incas tamed/bred horses, forged european-style armor with bronze, used arquebuses and learned how to produce gunpowder. HOWEVER, the civ in-game doesn’t have any of those technologies because those weapons, despite being technolgical advancement, weren’t developed during the strongest years of the incas. Which is arguably during Tupac Yupanqui or Huaynacapac era.
Under those same arguments, Mapuches started to use horses under Lautaro in 1550s. But these horses were just stolen from the spanish. It was much later, around 1600-1640 that they started to tame/breed horses on their own. Also, it was around 1590 that Mapuches started to unify and fight against the spanish as a whole political entity. Before that, Mapuches were just scattered tribes. With 6 major tribes ruling the area. So clearly, their strongest years weren’t when they were scattered and unorganized. Their golden age starts with their unification and the breeding of horses, which is past aoe2 time frame.
The same could apply to any native civ. That’s why I said that if you want to give them horses by any means, then you’d be turning them into aoe3 civs.
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I don’t like those artificial plastic categorisations. Most civs don’t actually hold what you now demand from new civs.
Just look at celts, basically everything about them is incorrect and weird. They don’t even fit in the “medieval” timeframe.
Still it’s a fun civ with very unique strats.
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Incas, Wari, Chimu:
I generally refrain from giving my opinion when it comes to North American natives in AoE 2 due to my relatively limited knowledge compared to Mesoamerica and South America.
But this message has really caught my attention:
- In America there were imperial civilizations, which are forged through conquests; These 3 South American civilizations (Incas, Chimú, Wari) were empires that managed to conquer other kingdoms and even manage to colonize environments as hostile as the Amazon and deserts such as the Atacama. Some people might even consider it “racist” to believe that the word “conquest” applies only to Spanish vs. Native Americans, Native Americans already had a long history before European contact.
- There were many other tribal organizations that fought against the Spanish and also learned to ride horses, believing that the Mapuche are the “only representatives” of the Native American cavalry is very biased. I personally believe that the Jivaros fared better fighting the Spanish, another civilization that also put up fierce resistance was the Caribs. Obviously there are many more stories, but Jivaros and Caribes are good references.
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Ok, if you don’t want to design civs around their strongest years or whatever that may give them a more solid fighting chance against others. Cool. Let’s give them new infantry units that may help them.
But do not insist on giving them horses or gunpowder please.
Actually not so important. The point is how to present the Mapuche-Inca wars and Mapuche-Spanish wars before 1600 in the game. In their warfare they learned quickly, used horses outstandingly and impressively as a native people, so their trainable cavalry units would very fit and be helpful to emphasize this theme in the campaign.
The Huns and Goths had never seen, heard and imagined anything about firearms, they still not so-called aoe3 civs even they have guns in the game.
I am not a supporter of American new civ, but this argument is more like to limit the self.
The fact that the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas cannot build stables doesn’t mean others couldn’t.
If one day they 3 can build stables, the dev would also use the sources that they used horses before 1600 AD.
???
The mapuche never faced the inca imperial army. They faced an exploration force… and couldn’t even defeat them.
Battle of the Maule - Wikipedia
You know, this is one of the reasons why I advocate for designing civs around their golden age and strongest years.
For example, the arauco wars 1 (1550-1662), arauco wars 2 (1662-1882) are far better options. But they are material for aoe3.
Arauco War - Wikipedia
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Fortunately we don’t have designed/balanced civs after that principle. Just imagine Mongols shredding everything cause they have “forever Genghis Khan”…
Or all the mesos suck cause they are behind in military technology.
Opposite, you insist on not giving them horses or gunpowder. We only make proposals that include them.
I stated that Horse Warriors are the only representatives of the native American cavalry since I suppose that the best candidates of new native American civs are Muisca and Mapuche. Not the others you mentioned.
Chimors and Tlaxcalans may be optional only when we need new native civs more than 2 civs.
Both Incas and Mapuche used 20000 men respectively. Also they didn’t lose.
Indeed, because of the records of Europeans, Americans have a lot more sources after 1600 than before, so I stated on my first comment on this thread that I think the priority of Americans is very very low.
But the user who created this thread state he/she didn’t care about that, he/she just wanted to discuss how to make it interesting if there was such a civ. And then I think those ways such like having chance to include horses could make it interesting and makes sense in terms of accuracy. That’s all.
Imagine the chinese being designed around the sui dynasty instead of the poweful song or ming dynasty. How are you even going to justify them getting tech discounts per age in that case.
Imagine mongols designed around before their unification. What are they going to do? play the sims with sheeps?
That’s the point. All mapuches joined together to stop inca explorers and couldn’t defeat them. Didn’t expel them either. The incas set maule as their border.
That is for balance, not reflecting what dynasty it represents.
I think the principle that @casusincorrabil said meant the civ tech tree does not follow the real world.
Otherwise you would see the crossbowmen in the dark age for Chinese.
I have not seen that any source shows that the 20000 men were entire power of Mapuche.
It is just a war without clear winner and loser.
This… keep in mind that by the middle of the 16th century, most of the American civilizations that had had contact with the Spanish had already learned to ride a horse.
The first Inca known to have learned to ride a horse was Quisquis, a general of Atahualpa during the fratricidal war.
I recommend this video, although I know there will be limitations due to language.
That figure is from the book by the Inca Garcilaso dela Vega, let’s just say that the book has many historical inconsistencies, more recent studies reveal that not so many troops were used during the battle of Mauele (if the battle really existed). I leave you this investigation (Spanish).
https://cuadernosdehistoria.uchile.cl/index.php/CDH/article/view/46464/48492
A more consistent account is that of Felipe Guaman Poma, who mentions that an expedition of 50,000 soldiers was sent for the campaign to conquer Collasuyo. He also mentions that the Incas defeated the Mapuches (Chilean Indians) by the appearance of a pestilence.
Due to the necessary logistics and Inca traditions, it is highly unlikely that the Incas would have redeployed such an amount of resources against the Mapuches.
http://www5.kb.dk/permalink/2006/poma/160/en/text/?open=idm46287306294384
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Isn’t Song dynasty famous for gunpowder, printing, the compass, and advanced porcelain. Like that period is the stereotype of chinese inventions and fast advancement.
Anyway, my point is that civ bonuses in general are based on something historical that reflects the civ power.
Yes, at that time they were not unified and were scattered from there to patagonia, all the mapuches didn’t join the alliance. But all the mapuche in that region did.
[…]these people south of the Maipo Valley had refused to submit to the rule of the Inca and called on their allies south of the Maule; the Antalli, Pincu, and Cauqui to join in opposing these invaders.[…]
[…]Enterados de la venida de los incas, los picunches se aliaron con los subgrupos Antalli, Cauqui y Pincu, formando un ejército de 20 000 hombres[…]
Battle of the Maule - Wikipedia
Well, @Josh1Axel already replied with a more solid sources. So I’ll just stop here.
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It is true that the Mapuches were never a compact group, however, it should be noted that the Mapuches arrived in Patagonia many centuries later. The Mapuches mainly inhabited the Arauco forest (that’s why they were called “Araucanos”).
Probably, before the Inca expansion, the Mapuches inhabited more territories to the north.
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Ok, I was wrong then.
Yes and no, there were some Mapuches to the north who, after being subdued, allied themselves with the Incas; but a good part of the Araucanians (Arauco Mapuches) allied themselves when the Inca exploration group had reached their most populated areas.
Based on the research I put up, the most likely theory is that the Inca scouting party was already on their way back north (discouraged by not finding an advanced social organization that could fulfill the functions of the empire) when they were ambushed by the Mapuche (Arauco) alliance; the Incas resisted the ambush and the Mapuches withdrew singing victory.
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lmfao WHAT
Are you also making a single civ for the entirety of Asia as well
Why does Europe get 30-some civs? Why not just one civ for the entirety of Europe?
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Its a cultural groups to include scots irish welsh and brittani so perfectly fine in the medieval age.