Design expectations for the North American natives

Then we should remove the fire ships from all the civis except byzantines and only give franks paladins.Your argument is just silly now.

Don’t lay something in my mouth I never said. What do you expect as response?

It’s your argument. Not mine. Yes, your argument about that historical accuracy is just silly. Totally agree.

Maybe, but that isn’t an argument for not including anything past 1600. And there also is already stuff past that timestamp. And things that never existed historically in a lot of civilisations. I don’t see a reason why picking such a random number other than making fake arguments to support the own perception. Ofc it would be bad if we would add like 18th century muskets to the game, as it is clearly designed around medieval warfare. But spreading weird random numbers doesn’t helps at any point of the further development in the game. It’s just made up to battle down anything you don’t like.
And as said. There are reports of americans using horses and arquebuses before 1600. So IF we use this random number, Incas actually should get access to HC and Hussars.
It’s not my argument it’s @Mahazona 's argument.

Same could be said about Meso civilizations, but here they are.

There are a lot of historical inaccuracies. Main point is that, while the civs may not be 100% accurate, no civilization is, and they can probably be fit into the AoE2 archetypes with their existing pre-columbian technology. Regardless, the 1600 hard cap isn’t really relevant either- the Slavic wonder is from the 18th century, the Spanish and their signature Conquistador are designed specifically after 1500.

I think the “historical accuracy” arguments are silly at this point. There is place for North American natives in AoE2, but fine, let’s just do another random fiefdom that exited for 100 years with 1000 people in it from Europe, just because they satisfy the very very clear and unambiguous conditions of “technologically advanced enough” and “relevant enough” we currently have, with Goth gunpowder, Celt cannon galleons, Cuman paladins, and what have you else.

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Is it?

The last thing on the game rn is the korean Turtle Ship as well as the Noryang Point scenario.

Not in north America as far as Im aware

Yeah but you are comparing giving civs the one thing that being a native american before the arrival of horses.

Also, pre columbian civs still had boats, good archers, spearmen and pikemen and did siege cities

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Well I’m about to make you aware. The early 1500’s is when the Spanish showed up with horses, and they began proliferating around then, and rapidly.

There’s also the interesting perspective of Native’s oral histories reporting across the continent that horses were here before Europeans were, and that they never went extinct in NA at all, but that is its own can of worms that there just isn’t enough research done into. Nevertheless, oral histories from NA have proven to be accurate time and time again, and looking into them is well worth the effort.

(Think of this - If horses weren’t in NA in some fashion before the Europeans came, how would the societies of the plains have worked at all? The various cities of the plains relied heavily on the nomadic traders to exist, and cities like Blood Run and Cahokia don’t just pop up over night. Both relied heavily on bison products brought to trade by the nomads, but without horses, the ability to hunt, carry, and clean bison of the number necessary just wouldn’t have been possible.)

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Yeah but as far as Im aware, theres no proof horses were adopted in a big way until the early 17th century

If we add american cav makes more sense to give it to Mapuches or Tlaxcalans

The reports about north american tribes using horses are a bit later, about 1630.
But these reports are actually about these tribes already have tamed and even started to breed mustangs on their own, indicating that they used horses even earlier.
Aswell as it might not be reported it is very likely, basically ensured, that they had access to horses and used them way before 1600.
And still, this random number makes no sense, again.

There’s heavy proof the Comanche, at least, began using horses to raid well before 1600, easily in the mid 1500’s. Beyond that, there’s definitely clear signs that the Natives were far more adept with the horse than a few decades of being with them should have allowed them to be - Clearly, they had horses a fair bit longer than we believe in the modern age, and their own stories back this up.

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True, but two wrongs don’t make make a right. Soon enough people will ask for hundreds of civs/tribes/groups because Meso and NA civs were added.

Why the American civs were able to be introduced into this medieval-themed game is because of the war with the conquistadors. It was named Ao"C", the game wants players to follow in the footsteps of the conquistadors to get to know the civilizations they had fought against whether or not there are Europeans in the campaign. Therefore, I think those will be the important conditions whether there was any strong and mature regime ever been established and was any interaction with Europeans before 1600 AD. And their tech tree will also be based on the level when they encountered Europeans at that time.

The Muisca and Mapuche were indeed the enemies of the conquistadors, had a good history of resistance which means the guarantee of the game content, therefore they are the most suitable potential candidates. The Chimors and Tlaxcalans as rivals of the Aztecs and the Incas respectively, just as the Burgundians were introduced as rivals of the Franks, are also optional.

The process by which the Iroquois established the Confederacy and the war against the Algonquins could be made into a Historical Battle. North Americans may have only one civ even if they are needed, so the Algonquins would also be represented by the Iroquois who are the most eligible.

Except for the above 5 peoples, other tribes are basically not competitive. With the addition of Polynesians as the only potential candidate from Oceania, these 6 will compete to become the new New World civs.

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I did some study on native Americans before 1600 AD and designed their civs.

The main content of the North American civ would be the Iroquois, so an unique building could be introduced as the equivalent defensive building to Castle for them, and naming it “Longhouse” instead of “War Hut”. At there, UTs, Conscription and Spies/Treason can be researched, and UUs and Trebuchet can be trained and upgraded.

Btw, the Iroquois civ bonus and UTs may be like the followings to represent the North Americans:

  • Lumberjacks can drop-off the wood without Lumberjack Camp, but work -10%. Reflecting the woodlanders they were.
  • Outposts and Houses have double HP, costing no stone and getting +2 LoS. Reflecting the Inuit inuksuit landmarks and many peoples’ longhouses.
  • Units garrisoned in buildings heal +300% faster. Reflecting their traditional medicines like echinacea still used nowadays.
  • Castle UT: Lacrosse (300 food and 300 wood)
    Archery Range units and Tomahawk get +10% speed, and Mantlet gets +50% speed.
  • Imperial UT: Adoption (500 food and 100 gold)
    The Longhouse researching this tech spawn 1 Villager for every 1 existing House, up to 20.

There is already Krepost so do not worry the balance so much. Just make Longhouse basically weaker and cheaper than Krepost, and make Guard Tower unavailable.

It is supposed to be useful when used to do aggressive rush, but a bit weak when used to defense the base.
The stats may be like:
Cost: 200 wood and 200 stone (while 350 stone for Krepost)
HP: 1800 (castle age) → 2300 (imperial age) (2600 for Krepost since the castle age)
Garrison: 20
Size: 3*3
Attack: 6, +4 vs spearman, +8 vs ships, +8 vs stone defense (10 basic attack for Krepost)
range: 6 (10 for Krepost)
Accuracy: 100%
Rate of fire: 1.5 (2.0 for Krepost, but DPS is 6/1.5=4 for Longhouse while 10/2=5 for Krepost)
Armor: 12/10 (8/11 for Krepost)
LoS: 16 (10 for Krepost)
Can supply 20 population like Castle and be benefited by tower techs at University.

I developed the third way:

The Tomahawk would be trainable at both Barrack and Longhouse, cost 45 food and 30 gold, have faster speed, lower attack, lower HP and attack bonus against cavalry, eagle and gunpowder unit. Elite one can destroy trees since they would have no Mangonel line.
HP: 50 → 55
Attack: 4 → 5, +3 → +5 vs cavalry, +2 → +3 vs eagle, +2 vs gunpowder
Range: 3
Rate of fire: 2.0
Frame delay: 20 → 14
Attack delay: 1 → 0.83
Accuracy: 90%
Projectile speed: 7
Armor: 0/0
Speed: 1.1
LoS: 5>6
Cost 1000 food and 700 gold for upgrade at Longhouse.

The Mantlet would be trainable at both Siege Workshop and Longhouse, cost 160 wood and 50 gold, and trainable at allies’ Siege Workshop as the team bonus.
HP: 200 → 250
Garrison: 3 → 4
Attack: 4 → 5, +3 → +50 vs buildings, +20 vs siege weapons and ships, +5 vs archer, +6 vs cavalry archer, +7 vs gunpowder ('first javelin); 1, +10 vs buildings ('additional javelin); throwing 2/2/3/4/5 javelins for every 0/1/2/3/4 garrisoned archer and Tomahawk.
Range: 5
Rate of fire: 3.0
Frame delay: 19
Attack delay: 0.52
Accuracy: 90%
Projectile speed: 7
Armor: 0/20
Speed: 0.51 → 0.65, +0.3 for every garrisoned infantry
LoS: 5 → 6
Cost 1000 wood and 500 gold for upgrade at Longhouse.

I found that there is probably no any other native Americans widely using horses for military purpose before 1600 AD, except for the Mapuche. So the Horse Warrior could be the unique common cavalry unit at Stable for the Mapuche only, while the Stable is able to be built only in the Imperial age. It would also have a pretty good stats and price for doing their job, doing tank and raid in the late game, since they have no any armor just like all the native Americans in AoE2.

Oh right, there is also probably no any othernative Americans widely using guns before 1600 AD, including the Mapuche. So basically all the potential civs from New World will have no guns surely.

We are really needing them.
Not only native Americans had no horse, Polynesians and Bantu Africans basically had no horseman too since the geoblocking and environmental restrictions. The former cannot ship horses on the ocean, and the latter cannot raise horses in the jungle due to the flies. That will be weird if all of these civs use the eagle which should be the unique for the Aztecs.

Since they are all stone-built civilizations, the Inca eagles look already relatively good. Imagine the Iroquois eagle, the Muisca eagle, the Polynesian eagle, or even the Congolese eagle.

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The krepost is intentionally weaker than castles. That’s why bulgarians still have access to normal castles. Bulgs woud be complete trash without standard castles.

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Interesting insight. In my experience, Kreposts are great for controlling maps and gathering armies. Castles would hardly be built if it weren’t for upgrading konniks, researching techs, and training trebuchets. Players can use Krepost as much as possible, instead of preparing more resources for building castles. Imagine if kreposts can also upgrade konniks, research techs and train trebuchets, spending 50 stone extra to build 2 kreposts is certainly even more beneficial than building a castle.

Haudenosaunee, please. Let’s not use names that make no sense.

A Longhouse is the village center. It’s better utilized as a unique Town Center - In my own concepts for AoE3, I’ve given the Hauds a unique TC with bonus health that supports 50 population, removing the need to build houses for the Hauds. Longhouses aren’t used for fortifications.

The Natives of the Eastern Seaboard were ridiculously effective at decimating forests. There’s massive swaths of forests in New England that are all basically the same age because the Natives chopped down entire forests to grow their own.

Why are you referencing the Inuit? Aren’t you making a concept based on the Haudenosaunee?

I like this. It’s neat.

Since it is for AoE2. Do not use same conception to consider different game.
TC is better do its own job and do not have other over fancy tricks.

According to the last paragraph of War Hut | Age of Empires Series Wiki | Fandom, It was in the longhouse that the Grand Council of the six member nations of the Iroquois Confederacy made decisions regarding matters of war and peace. So I name this building this term, the name is not the point however.

Well. To be precise, this civilization is representative of the whole of North Americans.
I’ve explained why I designed it this way.

I dont like the term longhouse it automatically gives a vikings vibe.just look at the vinland saga scenario.

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Aoe2: 476 - 1521 + 1590 (turtle ships).
Aoe3: 1492 - 1876.

North american natives don’t fit in aoe2. They belong to aoe3.
The civs should be design around their strongest years. You can argue about they getting horses in 1599 and whatnot, but certainly being in a period where they are introduced to horses and figuring out how to tame them isn’t their strongest. It’s their weakest.
Imo that’s why even incas don’t get horses and gunpowder, despite using those in warfare since 1530s. Because they weren’t at their strongest or golden days back then.

The golden era for north american natives is 1740 - 1890. They became experts at horse riding and put in a pinch their enemies from spain, america, and mexico. Plus leaders like Geronimo, Sitting bull, Red cloud, Tecumseh, Rain in the face, etc.

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More the era of the destruction…

Why people that obviously know nothing are so obsessed with their false claims?

Faces of mythification. Not even closely representative for the real north american cultures.
Justification to take the land from the natives, that are shown as fiercers, agressive, nomadic, unstable warriors. A false narrative to retrospectively rationalise genocide.

When is their golden era then? before 1600 when they can’t even dream of touching aztecs?

The Confederacy was most likely established by the great peacemaker Deganawida in 1451, and they continued to expand and fight against Algonquins. Even the active period of Hiawatha was before 1600.

The Inuits, including Skrælingars, conquered the arctic tree line of Northern Canada and Greenland step by step between 900 and 1500.

The above two will be the two main contents of this North American civ, one is the most powerful and mature government in North America before 1600, and the other is the earliest contact with Europeans and is already in the game. Indeed, this civilization will not have any cavalry and guns. However, they still have some themes to play during the era of AoE2.

The Mapuche used horses and even firearms at their heyday before 1600 AD.
According your words, they worth the Horse Warriors.

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