Maybe you will find this weird to say, but I really think somehow that the economy in AOE2 is too fragile, this is why you see the players focus on walling and defensive play and try to reach the castle age ASAP to start boom.
For example; if you lose a villager in the dark age it will be a big problem, a deathball and domino effect for along time to get back, and some of the pros if they lost 1 vill or 2 in the dark they instantly resign, they know more than anyone it is GG. Take the same example in feudal, early feudal and mid feudal if you lost like 3 or 4 vills you are dead if you didn’t make a big damage to your opponent. It seems this is why economy in AOE2 is more important than military and this is why focusing in the military in the game is not that much comparing to eco.
What do you think about this? Do you think that the game should have like a back up eco system that make the play more interesting and focus more on military more than eco?
this is true of literally any RTS there is. losing a gatherer early is a much bigger issue then losing a gatherer later in the game. it should feel costly. especially since frankly speaking, it’s pretty easy to keep them alive in the early game. aggression is minimal until you get to feudal age.
nope, i don’t. welcome to the nature of RTS - economy management is the groundwork for the game.
When you think of it, Viking with their free wheelbarrow and free handcart is like having a back up system, you can say the same about Burgundians with their powerful eco right now. These 2 civs if they lose vills early it won’t be that big problem for them at all since they have like a back up eco system and here is my idea:
What about like adding a new tech in the TC that will help to back up your eco? For example what about adding a tech in TC that we can call it Austerity? A tech that will help you to back up your eco early or something? It will help to make the game focus more in the military more than the eco side. This tech increase the vills workrate, but ofcourse it will have it’s own cost and for example it will not be for all civs, civs that have good eco won’t have the access to it.
it’s literally their only eco bonus they have though, unlike a civ that has a more permanent bonus that provides continuous long term benefits, like say, Celts faster lumberjacks, or Slavs faster farmers.
you could say the same about most civs then, because almost every civ in the game has some forme of economy bonus.
and how does it work?
so it doesn’t really help them get back in the game then, because a civ who hasn’t lost villagers can easily research it and since hes ahead in villagers hes going to get even more benefit from it then a person who hasn’t lost villagers.
so what determines a good eco or not a good eco? because some civs have really good early game ecos (Mongols are a good example) but their eco becomes pretty mediocre in the mid game and beyond. on the other hand some civs have a slower start but an absolutely amazing later economy.
same with Lithuanians - the 150 extra food helps a bit in the early game but by the time you hit mid feudal it’s not longer relevant. on the other hand Sicilians eco bonuses don’t really factor in until you hit castle age.
so which civs should get this bonus and which shouldn’t?
And it is enough and good and one of the strongest eco in the game.
A back up system is something different; it will help you to focus more on military and back up your eco even if you lose some vills.
This tech increase the work rate and vills speed, something similar to wheelbarrow and Handcart but with unique effects.
Yeah but remeber not all civs will get it, so this is one thing; 2nd thing it is a TC tech, so even if the player ahead he will be forced to idle his TC and it will not be a good advantage for him, this tech will be like a dark/feudal tech that will help players in all-in pushes or give them a back up for their eco if they got some losses early.
It is clear which civs will get this tech and which civs not. In general if the devs add this tech then indeed they will watch who the things going on, it is a normal procedure like adding new civs then watch the stats to know if it will be OP/Weak or not then balance it according to reviews and stats.
true, but again, once you get to the late game, their eco falls off and their units fall off too.
how? because it makes your villagers work faster? so does literally any eco bonus in the game.
so its a new wheelbarrow and handcart. but again, who gets it and who doesn’t?
true, but again, why do some civs get it and some don’t? for example. magyars have arguably the worst economy in the game. so by your logic they should get it, but they also have one of the absolute best late games in the game, so giving them yet another version of WB/HC could utterly BREAK THEM.
but if it causes him to idle vilager production in the feudal and dark age, is it really providing that much benefit? i mean seriously - go look at how much of a benefit WB and HC actually give - it is not recommended to get WB until late feudal at the earliest for most civs.
is it? then if its so clear please feel free to list the civs which will get this tech. because clearly it’s so clear to you, but to me there is a heck of a lot of a grey area.
No it is different I will tell you how. This tech will be like All-in tech, It’s like a public emergency, or like Flimish revolution but with eco effect. If you make your vills will have an insane workrate like maybe 100% faster but your TC will not be able to make vills for like 5mins, it is literally Austerity system did you get the idea?
This will be the devs work, I can give you an examples and civs name, but the final decision will be to the devs after reviewing the results and stats for month for example. It will need big effort for sure.
Dude I am not a designer, I am a player who give suggestions, why you assume that I am a designer? If I give some suggestions this doesn’t mean I need to make full study because it is impossible becasue I am not in the devs team, I can’t test it by my self in the game, the tech need to be introduced then see the reviews and results from the players and the stats.
You gonna pay for the study? For the time and resources? Because that’s what you’re asking the devs to do. And it sounds like a terrible idea regardless to me. Don’t wanr to be punished for losing villagers? Take better care of them
feudal age units can’t compete with castle age units, so it shouldn’t be too surprising that people aim for castle age
all the walling is only there because land maps don’t have ways to spend resources until castle age. you have nothing to spend that wood on, so you might as well wall. there’s no economic difference between walling at 7 minutes versus walling at 15 minutes (unless you’re cumans), so you might as well do it earlier
same thing with the militia rushing. that isn’t really a huge part of the actual game, but you see it all the time on shallow maps like arabia because there’s nothing else to spend resources on. the barracks is required, and you have a bunch of extra food, so it is rarely an awful investment. and you can randomly get lucky and kill a villager or force a mill/lumber camp to be deleted
if you play on some of the higher-strategy maps, losing villagers in dark age is no problem because the only way that happens is if someone focuses on land while you focus on sea. you lose vils. they lose fish. it balances out. the game of aoe2 has all of that, even if the shallow ranked ladder map pool does not
Tbh @TheBiz1 is making some good points. On a map consisting of mostly empty space, like Arabia, going forward early makes a lot of sense, because you’re usually close to your enemy, unlikely (but not impossible ofc) that he can wall you out, so why not?
It is not about maps or resources, it is about the economy in general. The fragile eco system make the players focus on economy more than military, vills numbers, TCs, eco upgrades and many other things that restricts the player from focusing on the military. This is why I suggested to give the game like back up eco system to make the players focus more in military and prevent the domino effect.
This is your opinion, you can take the same example for water, you lose your water or fishing ships ( which they are vills) you will struggle. I am not saying to prevent awarding the better player, I am saying that the game can be “gg” for example with small mistake, like losing a vill in dark or feudal or something, I mean you can see pro games ended in like 10mins because they know there is no “comeback”, no back up. In AOE2 the focus on the economic side is much higher than on the military side, The economy is taking the big part, which prevents players from focusing on the military.
This is literally the purpose of palisades and stone. If you scout the enemy such that it’s predictable they will have more army near your villagers than you do in the near future, build defenses.
Walls, towers, and castles are incredibly cheap for what they do. A castle costs 2200 villager seconds when built by 8 villagers. This is about what 4.5 rams cost but good luck adding 4 or 5 rams to your army and still trading cost effectively around a castle. Same thing with walled in towers. Generally you have to simply not engage near those buildings.
Now obviously if you get to the point where you’ve already lost villagers that’s a different story. But even then if you delay the game long enough the deficit matters less and less. You are still fighting an uphill fight, but it’s not a guaranteed loss.
the asymmetry that exists between civs eco bonus times (late vs early).
the asymmetry in composition and power spikes.
the fact that you need villager deaths to be punishing otherwise counter-raids would not be viable.
The point to all of this is that there exist mechanics in the game such that villagers should not be dying much without forcing reasonably large investment from the enemy. E.g. 3 maa is like 700 villager seconds. Or almost 12 villager minutes. That requires a lot of idle time or time after villager death to recoup.
I mean you can see pro games ended in like 10mins because they know there is no “comeback”, no back up. In AOE2 the focus on the economic side is much higher than on the military side, The economy is taking the big part, which prevents players from focusing on the military.