Tweaking the Burgundians

I prefer none :slightly_smiling_face:

and yet what is actually killing people when they play against Burgundians?

it’s the ability to instantly convert and make 100 more military. if you fix that the civ is still good and yet can’t flood with 100 extra military in seconds.

And why we see them not always picked and banned in pro?
And if they often lose. It’s obvious it isn’t op, they aren’t even in the pros “a” category atm.

They are obviously NOT op. Just the Flemish Revolution is off.

Yeah, but did I suggest to remove the eco bonus? No. Just tweak it, nerf it a little bit, since 50% with age before is OP, so here is the deal:

You either pick:

1- 40% with not age before
2- age before with 35%, 30%, 25%.

I don’t know if 50% with not age before will still good because 50% seems a very big discount. I pick choice num 2.

actually that has happened a bit lately, but it’s more tied to the ability to boom into well over 150 military units and overwhelm your opponent. if they take away the ability to convert 100+ villagers into military, they would be fine.

or i go with neither - and target what is actually killing people - the flemish revolution.
make it so i can’t convert 100+ villagers into military and suddenly i can’t overwhelm my opponent with an army he can’t beat.

Also i firmly don’t believe that 50% food discount would be anything OP, especially when you got civs who save even more resources like Chinese, or civs like Indians who save a ton of food on villagers, or a civ like Tatars who get 400 extra food minimum, or any of the bunches of civs that save a bunch of food on free techs.

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You can’t let their smoothy eco go on, Chinese don’t have any unique or special thing about their military, they are all generic, but what make them S is their eco, same for Vikings and Mayans (except cheaper archers), this game focus on eco more than the military and I wrote a topic about this issue. The eco is the real deal to make the civ neither F tier or S tier.

Check: Discussion about Economy in AOE2

except you know saving a bunch of resources on techs, having one of the widest tech trees in the game giving them a plethora of options.

not completely true - it’s about EARLY eco. Mongols and Lithuanians are considered great civs, but neither has good long term economies (as a matter of a fact, Lithuanians have one of the worst OVERALL BOOMS in the game). meanwhile you got a civ like Indians, Persians, Teutons, and Japanese, all who have solid ecos overall and better long term ecos, but fall down further due to theirs being more long term rewarding.

and the game revolving around eco is true of pretty much every RTS on the market.

Yeah but giving a civ a new lame mechanic with big discount is not fair and not good thing for the balance. Making Burgundians with 50% discount and being able to get those techs age before is Lame.

according to you anyway. either way, i don’t think the eco is what is causing the problem. most the time when i see burgundians win, guess what they are doing? booming into around 50-60 military and then converting vills into militia. cut the militia out of that and they can’t win that way.

If that bonus is lame, what about vikings and chinese? They get comparable or even better eco basically for free, whilst burgs actually have to pay for it.
Case closed.

And what make the boom smoothy and go well? The OP eco right?

I want to ask you a question, what it is the problem with option 2 or 3? Both of them are good eco system, it is not like we kill their eco, but make it disciplined and balanced, and 50% discount with age before is not balanced.

Both of them need a nerf, I didn’t say to let them as they are, but this topic is for Burgundians.

so why focus on Burgundians, who are new, and are just now getting limelight, when civs like Aztecs, Mayans, Chinese, Lithuanians, and Vikings have all been as strong for a year or more?


Because Burgundians are OP more than these civs, with none skill requirement to give free wins, unlike Chinese with their rough start or Vikings with their limited options or Mayans with their eco management and 1 trick pony, as I said I will try to give suggestions about Chinese and other civs.

no, they aren’t. even the pros aren’t banning them as much as they ban vikings and chinese and hte like.

chinese rough start? how so? just because they start with no food doesn’t make it rough. get your 6 vills on sheep right away, research loom, pump out vills from there.

you mean like burgundians? they got solid heavy cavalry, BBC, hand cannons and flemish militia. other then that, not a lot going on.

1 trick pony?
arbs, plumes, eagles. hardly 1 trick pony.

just made my Day 11

Not a lot of tricks.

Maybe not, but then again neither do Burgundians. their scout line is inferior, their infantry largely stink, their archers aren’t that great, and most their siege is lackluster.

They do have hand cannons with extra attack.

Did I say Chinese, Vikings, Aztecs and Mayans are fine? No. I will write a topic about them one by one, but this topic about Burgundians.