It’ll solve itself once the civ is banished to Chronicles.
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What were your civs? And whom do you consider proper Arena civ?
As the current meta should be, the three strongest are Bohemians / Bengalis / Burgandians, then slightly below should be the Poles / Malay. Plus the wild cards of Turks / Spanish / Mongols for the UU. If we go down the list a little further, there are probably the Koreans / Vietnamese / Britons / Burmese / Byzantines / Italians.
In short, economic bonus, monks, strong BBcs or something to manage them. Or the possibility of spamming towers and to have options once without gold. Contrary to Arabia mobility matters little.
Bohemians bacause is the safest bet when opponent pick, but against most civilizations Wei would be in trouble. They don’t have an easy way to deal with Halberdiers + Siege.
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Wei somehow similar to the Franks but no such good economy and decent infantry and lock the worse Paladin in the castle. I’d say they should have their “Paladin” moved to the stable, change the economy bonus, and gain a new UU that is not cavalry in the castle.
The regeneration of Wu embarrasses the Berserk. It should be replaced with sth like imfantry +1/+1 armor.
The gimmicky mechanics of the Jian swordsman and Fire Archer should be reworked. I have thoughts in the link of mine above.
I would say more Lithuanians, without gunpower and monks.
I actually like Fire archers mechanic for having different firing modes and ranges for different targets compared to the Ratha, who needs a button to switch between the two. The fire archer just seems a more elegant method to give a unit more than one attack
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In my opinion, I don’t think their mechanics are that gimmicky.
Compared to Ratha switching between firing modes the fire archer does the same thing but automatically. Also funny elite longbow obsidian arrows.
Jian Swordsman (when below a certain hp they put their shield on their back and gain increased offenses but reduced armour), also doesnt seem that gimmicky. It has a very interesting synergy with their team bonus as after regenerating they switch back into shielded mode.
Its basically switching between two modes again but automatic and I’m pretty sure I’ve seen ideas for infantry unique units with shields you can switch between shielded mode and attacking mode.
Jian swordsman could probably use a PA nerf and removal of their +1 shock infantry armour. Compensate with something.
Fire archer needs buff…
Nah. Put aside the Lou Chuan and Ratha, who have modes for the different weapons, why can this archer shoot a building 13 tiles away, but not a unit 10 tiles away with a same bow? Why can it shoot multiple arrows to a unit but not a building? Undoubtedly it is a gimmick, and a strange gimmick making no sense.
Also the obsidian arrow is silly. There were reasons for the removal of the old UT. The Fire Archer can be tolerated because it is locked in the castle, but its range that is longer than not only the elite longbow’s range but also the castle’s range should not be tolerated.
As you want a interesting design, the Fire Archer can reasonably have its flaming arrows able to leave lingering fire on the ground and ships, just like the Mounted Trebuchet’s projectiles. That can simply allow it to deal different damage on different types of targets over time, without the gimmicky “modes” that unreasonably have different range and number of projectiles.
At very first place, the infantry regeneration robs the identity of the Berserk. I don’t like it.
The automatic switching is the another problem. The units may have been no shield when the player needs them to cover other units , and they may have held shields due to regeneration when the player needs them to move as quickly as possible or deal as much damage as possible.
I’m not saying the automatic switching is always bad, but there should be a reasonable explanation. The Konniks (lit. horseman) reasonably fight on horseback, and they are forced to fight on foot when the horses die. On the other hand, the Jian Swordsman lacks the explanation. Why can’t it hold the shield when it is low, and why can’t it put the shield on back when it is fine?
The modes of Jian Swordsman should be either able to be switched by the player freely with a button, or keep automatically but with a more reasonable explanation.
In my opinion, the unit can have its shield as a full and un-rechargeable bar that can take up to X damage, while its basic health is reduced to 90-X in exchange. If the shield has been broken, the unit in the unshielded mode can regain a shield only after not attacking or taking damage for Y seconds. Therefore it can be explained that it is forced to be unshielded. If you want to combine the freely switching and the reasonable automatic switching, then the unit can also be switched between the shielded mode and the unshielded mode freely when the shield hasn’t been broken.
3 Likes
Or the discount bonus exclude blacksmith and be consistent with Burgundians and Dravidians 50% discount. This will nerf both their Feudal and early Castle Xbow+Bodkin but will be stronger from late Castle.
I wish some other civ in the future gets cheaper blacksmith attack techs along with Ballistics and Chemistry.
My opinion is that their Arbalesters should not have full of upgrades when they can fire more projectiles.
On the other hand, the cheaper archer techs is the main bonus of theirs, lacking the Thumb Ring would be a shame, so I think let the Bolt Magazine increase their reload time is a more decent way.
That also makes sense. Filling bolts into a magazine and loading a magazine on the crossbow ready for the next shot naturally takes more time than just loading one bolt directly into the crossbow.
But I understand your wish. In the African DLC concept of mine, I’ve hope the Nubians can have -50% cost for the Archery Range techs.
I didn’t realize 30 HP/Min is that powerful until this video.
A free civ bonus is beating an Imperial Age UT. Another example of Power Creep.
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Come on it’s just so that FU Champions kill each other in 5 hits. And it becomes 6 hits with basically every defensive ability - really hard though to make it 4 hits which Aztecs actually get barely against any “just” FU Champ. Ofc the Wu regen more than 2 HP in that combat. But in mass battles Aztecs actually might even have an edge when 2 or more of their champs attack a Wu Champ they might kill them earlier.
You’re picking cherries here.
Also: Aztecs have Jags…
In case of Fire Archers and Lou Chuan. I find the double attack modes kinda silly. Imo they could just keep the longer range agaisnt Buildings but in compensation have lower base attack.
Especially Fire Archers would be way more interesting if they would leave a fire Patch on the ground that deals damage “over time” (achieved by the effeft of the thunderclap bombs with like 3 or 4 ticks a 1 damage or something like this). This would be an interesting special feature and make the unit truly unique.
On the other hand imo the damage type of the fire archers should be changed. Imo the damage against stone defences should be a lot lower than against wooden structures. Wu should use the designated Siege weapons against them.
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In general, I hate these sneaky +1/-1. They are a load of crap:
- Jian Swordsman (+1 Shock infantry),
- Ratha (+1 Cavalry Archer)
- War Wagon (-1 Cavalry archer).
and I’m definitely forgetting someone.
And also the Condottiero is implemented stupidly. And for some insane reason they didn’t redo it properly, and every time they touch something in the infantry class they forget something, and then rush to do another hotfix.
Edit. And speaking of the War Wagon, I would love if the devs:
- remove the sneaky -1
- set the pierce amour to 0 for the base unit, 1 for the elite
- give Koreans Parthian Tactics
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Replace the fake ballista bolt that doesn’t pass through the target with 4 normal bolts, rockets or bullets, and change its class from cavalry archer to cavalry + siege!! It should become like the Shu War Chariot.
Here are my balancing ideas:
Units:
Hei Guang Cavalry in general -1 melee Armor but + .05 Speed. Heavy Hei Guang upgrade cost doubled, but receive +1 Pierce Armor in compensation.
Traction Trebuchets + 20 % more Anti-Building damage
War Chariot +2 Attack against Cavalry. +1/+2 Arrows in Barrage mode.
Fire Archers reworked: Keep the anti-building mode, the anti-unit mode removed. Base Attack increased by 1. Leave a fire patch on the ground that deals 1 damage each second over 3 seconds in a .5 tile radius. Anii-Building damage is increased to 5 but changed to the normal Building armor class. Red Cliffs Tactics also adds another 1 second tick to the fire patch.
White Feather Guard -5 / -10 HP but creation time reduced to 9/7(elite) seconds.
Grenadier +1 attack but thunderclap bombs effect does 1 damage less.
Xianbei Raider Charge Attack just fires 3 “standard” arrows instead of 5 modified ones, Base attack increased to 5. Bonus vs Infantry and Condos removed. Accuracy is always 100 %.
Civs
Khitnas: Lose faster production bonus
Wu: Get faster production bonus from Khitans. Lose Hussar. Food from buildings Bonus reduced to (about) 40.
Wei: Hei Guang HP Bonus increased to 20 % / 40 %. Villager Bonus changed so it also affects Town Center techs. Tuntian effect doubled.
Shu: Lumberjacks food bonus halved. Archer tech bonus changed to: Archer attack upgrades cost -100 %
Jurchens: Faster attack bonus increased to 25 %.
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Yes, this too. But the fact that they have 5 pierce amour for free is among the stupidest things devs have ever done.
Great summary. Also the grenadiers are very underwhelming. Siege engineers even with the wood discount aren’t practical for castle age. Iron pagoda might probably be the worst or bottom 3 amongst melee cavalry unique units.
Not a good analysis here. 70 food is laughable when you don’t have any bonus to follow it up. But this way they can put an extra vill on wood instead of food, still get the same amount of food and start adding pastures sooner. Scout opening is solid because you can get 6 vills on pastures for the same wood cost as 5 for other civs and the 6 vills collect as much food as 6.6 vills for generic civs. That’s a solid difference in food collection rate. Faster production of skirms and scouts is also a solid advantage.
Not having bloodlines is certainly an issue in castle age but in feudal age bloodlines requires gold collection while forging costs only food. So its possible to get the upgrade much sooner especially with the food bonus.
Infantry uu that don’t move fast are never OP but Liao Dao are a decent unit. Camel catapult is more like a fast moving mangonel than a bbc imo.
Shu and Wu are water/hybrid civs. Don’t see a reason why you’d put Shu as 15 on closed, not a monk civ nor have gunpowder. Also don’t see why you’d rate them so low on water/hybrid. In water/hybrid build has too many vills on wood, that’s a lot of free food.
Wei might be just for tg. Otherwise they are very weak and one-dimensional. Most camel civs might completely counter them. It might be one of the most difficult civs to play and very tricky.
Most units would perform poorly when they’re suffering from a bug halving their firepower. War Chariots are just the most extreme example of that. And they have two modes: a focus fire mode (which should be more accurate at the cost of fewer projectiles) and a barrage mode (more projectiles in exchange for much greater spread - should be more overall damage, but less targeted).
Shu have both White feather guards and halbediers, both of which are anti-cav units. And a critical mass of Xbows/Arbs can one-shot cavalry units. I don’t think Shu need another anti-cav option. But I would expect scorpions and mangonels to be effective against both archers and the Shu’s front-line options.
I doubt extra arrows in barrage mode would do that much so long as the bug keeping them from firing their full volley remains.
Yes. I don’t own the DLC and not good at scenario editor to give units regen. I never watched any mass battle in any channel. If Aztecs win in mass battle, that is good. Still a free civ bonus being almost on par with an Imp UT is a bad design. I think this regeneration bonus needs to be nerfed, maybe just 5 HP/min.
But it isn’t. The Champs kill each other in 5 hits which is also the case with other bonusses like Teutons (against Aztecs).
The reason for that is that the extra Attack of Aztecs make them kill normal Champs in 1 less attack (4 instead of 5 hits), but basically every small defensive bonus brings it back to 5.
Wu regenerate 5 HP during that battle which just makes them barely survive the 4th hit of the Aztecs Champ. Whilst the Wu Champ just barely kills the Aztec one with the 5th hit, the Aztec actually does a huge amount of Overkill damage which doesn’t come to account in this special setting.
I actually think that the Wu Champion line of anything the Wu have actually could receive another small Bonus, maybe from one of the UTs. The regen is nice, but nothing exceptionally strong for an “Infantry” civ. And actually has more impact on the Halbs and Jians than the Champs.
PS: BTW part of the current Khitan dominance might be a bug that the Khitan pastures are somehow overperforming with about 10 % faster collection than intended. It’s really unfortunate to have this at the release of a dlc happening.