Dissolving the Holy Roman Empire

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
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In 1806 the Holy Roman Empire was dissolved by its emperor Francis II in reaction to Napoleon’s victories. His coronation as Emperor of France and the creation of the Confederacy of the Rhine came with a serious threat of Napoleon taking the title of Holy Roman Emperor. Rather than suffer this, Francis dissolved the Empire and created his own Austrian Empire which included a hereditary title to safeguard the Habsburg’s domains.

This Dissolvement of the Empire led to the German question. The major powers of the German lands, Austria and Prussia both desired to lead the German people in a united Germany. Austria preferring a “Großdeutsche Lösung“ A united Germany under Austria. And Prussia prefering a „Kleindeutsche Lösung“ that would unite the Northern German states and leave out the Austrians as they wanted to be the major power in Germany.

In the end the Prussians prevailed and in 1871 the German Empire was formed following the Schleswig wars, the Austro-Prussian war and the Franco-Prussian war.

In Age of Empires III the Germans represent the Holy Roman Empire and all states within it, including the bitter rivals Austria and Prussia. There is much discussion about the Germans and how they should be represented or changed. Now with the new mexican civilization and it’s revolutions system I developed an idea. One that not only leaves the current Germans practically untouched but also allows the addition of both Prussia and Austria without the need for entirely new civs, as many people feel that multiple German civs are unneeded.

The Empire Dissolves.

In Age III in addition to advancing in age normally and continuing the game as they normally would, the Germans receive a new option similar to Mexican revolutions. At a higher cost than a regular advancement the Germans can elect to dissolve the Empire and continue on as either Austria or Prussia. This “revolution” differs from a normal revolution or age up. It replaces the flag and home city as usual, but the player retains his normal deck with the exception of the age IV cards. A new row of 10 cards will replace those cards, meaning that a planned change to Prussia or Austria will leave those decks with 10 cards more than a regular German deck would have. In exchange the free Uhlans will no longer be awarded while the increased XP cost will remain. The larger deck being the “new factions” special ability so to say. Like a normal age up all settlers and settler wagons will remain as normal, however several units might be changed upon this age up. Finally the option to move on to the Imperial age and access its upgrades will still be there, the game does not end in age IV for the Austrians or Prussians. They will function like any normal civ would from the moment the player changes to either of these factions.

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Austria

Focus on Cavalry and mercenaries.

All skirmishers replaced with Pandours. Pandour replaces skirmisher in Barracks.
Grenzer (Musketeer) added to Barracks.

Pandour and Grenzer upgraded to guard level. Uhlan upgraded to royal guard level.

Age IV cards:

Heartlands (can be shipped twice): Ships a Factory Wagon, when producing resources factories now trickle experience in addition to those resources.
2 factories in one slot, the experience trickle should allow Austria to gain shipments equally fast as regular civs.

Lipizzaner Cavalry.
Spanish Riding School.
Regular cards available to the Germans. They remain here because of their Austrian Habsburg theme.

Kulczycki Coffee House: Increases the Tavern’s coin trickle and increases the build limit by 2.

Austro-Hungarian Compromise : Ships 8 Magyar Hussar and allows them to be trained in Forts.

Alpine Warfare: Pandour get +20% attack and health.
More attack, but less health than regular RG German skirmishers. Note that Pandour are not Royal Guard units.

Jesuit Allies (repeatable): Ships a number of Jesuit Conquistadors.

Großdeutsche Lösung: Ships a fort Wagon, increases the fort build limit by 1 and allows your exporer to rebuild lost forts.
Allowing rebuildable Forts for those that want to keep building those Magyar Hussar.

House of Habsburg: Mercenaries in the tavern are trained faster and are cheaper.

Tu Felix Austria Nube: Increases the build limit of native units and replaces their wood costs with gold.

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Prussia

Musketeer and Grenadier focussed.

Doppelsoldner replaced with Grenadier. Grenadier replaces Doppelsoldner in barracks.
War Wagons replaced with Dragoons. Dragoons replace War Wagon in Stables.
Landwehr (Musketeer) added to Barracks.

Grenadier, Dragoon and Landwehr upgraded to guard level.

Age IV cards:

Blood and Iron (repeatable): Ships a factory wagon, build limit remains at 2.
The industrious Prussians can rebuild lost factories with this card.

Prussian Infantry drills: Grenadiers and Landwehr get +15% attack and health
To allow Prussia to actually use their iconic units a bit better than regular civs.

Totenkopf Hussar : Ships 8 Totenkopf Hussar and allows them to be trained in Forts.
Mirroring the Magyar Hussar of the Austrians

Lange Kerls: Increases Grenadier health by 15% and increases their attack range.

Kleindeutsche Lösung: Ships a fort Wagon, increaes the fort build limit by 1 and allows your exporer to rebuild lost forts.

Krupp Eisenwaren: Increases the production and attack speed of heavy cannon.

Akan Allies (repeatable): Ships a number of Akan Ankobia.

Stechschritt : Landwehr and Grenadiers gain increased movement speed.

Krümpersystem : All your settlers are transformed into Landwehr.

Second Miracle of the House of Brandenburg: Ships a large number of Russian Cossacks.

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Personally, I would prefer Austro-Hungary civ and Prussians civ as brand new civs.

If, unfortunately, such completely new civs would not arise, I think that this is a good alternative.

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Germans civ could get the following updates - based on the Mexicans civ:

  1. Unique Age Up mechanics - Electors (would replace standard politicians. The flag of the Holy Roman Empire, such as Bavaria, Bohemia and the Hanseatic League + Teutonic Order, would be shown). It would resemble the Federal State Age Up mechanics - some new Unique Units (plus Jaeger, Swiss Pikeman and Doppelsolder) and new Electors cards.

Electors:

2nd Age:

  • Pomerania, Frankfurt, Lusatia, Bohemia and Burgundy

3rd Age:

  • Hanza, Carniola, Swabia, Low Countries and Thuringia

4th Age:

  • Silesia, Westphalia, Brandenburg, Hamburg and Hesse

5th Age:

  • Hannover, Saxony, Confederation of the Rhine, Bavaria and Switzerland
  1. Unique revolution mechanics that would be called “Deutsche Reiche”. It would be a tribute to the great German empires that would eventually appear in the game in this way. This option would replace the standard Revolution. This would already be available in Fortress Age as an alternative to Age Up to Industrial Age. It would completely change the Home City card deck to the new one (Prussian or Austrian). Available “Deutsche Reiche”:
  • Kingdom of Prussia
  • Empire of Austria

Another “Deutsche Reiche” can be selected later (5th Age):

  • Kingdom of Prussia ➔ German Empire
  • Empire of Austria ➔ Austria-Hungary

The Kingdom of Prussia and the Austrian Empire would offer brand new Unique Units to replace the archaic units from Age 2 + one unique building:

  • Kingdom of Prussia - Grube (this Building is being built on a mine. Increases the mine’s capacity by 50%) In this building, you can train Miners (a unit present in the campaign), who obtain coins from mines and from Grube more efficiently. Following the example of Mountain Monastery (a unique civ Ethiopian building), it would generate Coins or XP. This building would have improvements such as: increasing the Coin abundance in Grube and increasing the number of trainable Miners. This building would contain a distinctive Headframe.
  • Empire of Austria - Festung (connection of the Barrack with the Stable. Unlike Fort and Blockhouse, it doesn’t defend. It has more than 2700 HP, but requires 450 wood and the construction time is 45 seconds). It would replace Barracks and Stables.

The German Empire and the Austria-Hungary would offer brand new Unique Units to replace the archaic units from Age 3 + one unique building:

  • German Empire - Reichstag
  • Austria-Hungary - Parlamentsgebäude

(both buildings would replace the standard Capitol, but would have the same functions)

Units:

4th Age

Kingdom of Prussia:

  • Offizier is a Prussian hero. It has a Big Button “Prussian Discipline”. This ability increases the rate of fire and durability of ranged infantry units. He can build Forts

  • Silesian Schuetzen - Elite rifle-armed troops. They shoot from a long distance and deal massive damage at the cost of a very low rate of fire and training limit (only 10 such units at the same time).

  • Potsdam Giants

Empire of Austria:

  • Hofrat is a Austrian hero. Can train Rottweiler (dog). Settlers are more effective around him.

  • Windbüchse Jäger - Austrian elite ranged gunpowder infantry with unmatched rate of fire and long range, with the ability to fire even concealed.

  • Grenzer - Austrian unique counterpart to Militiaman. He loses HP, but only to 75% HP. They train in groups of 5. They can also be summoned in the Outpost and in the Fort (up to two times per building).

5th Age

German Empire:

  • Landwehr - weak infantry armed with muskets. Uses bayonet in hand-to-hand combat

  • Totenkopf (improved Uhlan unique to German Empire)

  • Howitzer - large ranged artillery

  • Ironclad

Austria-Hungary:

  • Hajduk - weak archer but cheap. They would use axe in hand-to-hand combat.

  • Pandur - weak and cheap ranged heavy gunpowder infantry. They would use Yatagan in hand-to-hand combat. This unit would be the equivalent of the Ottoman Unique Unit - Janissary (but weaker)

  • Hungarian Hussars (improved Hussar unique to Austro-Hungary civ)

  • Hungarian Grenadier (improved Grenadier unique to Austro-Hungary civ)

  1. Vienna & Maria Theresa von Habsburg - brand new alternative Home City and Ruler for Germans civ (replaceable as the Explorer skin).
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I think it’s best that we not dismantle one of the original civilizations, but we may be able to split Austria and Prussia without destroying the German civilization.

The Germans look more like the Austrians than the Prussians, right down to Settler Wagons wearing Lederhose. Therefore, I propose that Germans are renamed to “Austrians,” and Prussia is then made into an entirely new and original civilization. This game remains a remaster, and as such, the developers are not allowed to seriously modify the original content of the game, including original civilizations. The German civilization has a lot of fans, and I think just arbitrarily removing it to be replaced with two entirely different civilizations would anger a lot of people.

This Austrian civilization would keep all the units and shipments it currently has, but there would be cosmetic changes. Prussian Needlegunner, for example, could become Grenzer or Schützen. Frederick the Great would be replaced with a prominent Austrian leader. I was actually thinking Eugen von Savoyen, but it could just as easily be Maria Theresia or Franz I. Other references to Prussia or Northern Germany like “Teutonic Town Centers” could be renamed something else more related to Austria, such as referencing the fortified manors and towns along the Austrian-Ottoman border.

I can’t think of what sort of attributes the Prussian civilization would have, and I think it would require serious planning to figure out how a new European civilization could play a unique role in the game. As it stands, the developers have done well to make sure each civilization has its own strategic niche and unique playstyle. While my initial thought is to make Prussia a high-quality civilization with really powerful musketeers and grenadiers but weaker cavalry and artillery, but that also sounds an awful lot like either Sweden or Japan.

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I agree with what you’re saying, but it also makes me think you didnt read the original post. Unless ofc youre not responding to that.

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Idk if it is technically possible to swap the age 4 card slot only.
But NE mod has techs from buildings that cost shipments. Perhaps this is a possible way to implement this mechanic.

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I think your proposal is fairly grounded, but I know that it is often easy to get carried away with elaborate proposals to make or redesign civilizations. With that said, I think if the devs implemented a Revolution design in the manner which you suggest, people would expect a similar feature for all other civilizations. Should Britain get the ability to dissolve the Union into Ireland or Scotland, for example? Should Spain break into Castille and Aragon, or perhaps for the later period of the game, Bourbons vs. Habsburgs (War of Spanish Succession), or Bourbons vs. Bonapartists (Napoleonic Wars)?

Though, now that I think about it, giving France the ability to “revolt” into either Bourbons, Bonapartists, or Republicans would be interesting. Perhaps the developers will settle for having the flags change with each age-up.

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I’m still waiting for a Revolutionary France revolution. That will settle the “where is the tricolor” complaint since 16 years ago.
Prussia/Austria as pseudo-revolts is a great idea because both are major powers, and scrapping the current well-established German civ is very difficult. But simply adding new options would not change the civ entirely.

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sweden has amazing cav and artillery tho :slight_smile:

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You raise a fair few points. If Germans should get new mechanics why wouldnt others? The French republic would be one such state that could use a mechanic like this as well indeed.
ArrivedLeader22 makes a good point though that the two German states became large major powers in europe. And besides shouldnt civs have a little diversity in their mechanics? I see many new civs designs that just take, for example the US age ups.
Its also fair to say I might’ve gotten carried away with this design, it might be too strong the way Ive made it. It should be balanced so that all three options for age IV should be equal viable options. But the main point of course is the basic design of the mechanic. Balance of the age up and the cards are all subject to change. I just quickly came up with 10 cards for both options.

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There are only two solutions for Germans civ to finally make the German empires worthily portraying in this game:

  1. Radical - big changes in Germans civ, e.g. those that @Opdepov and I presented.

  2. Time consuming - two brand new civs: Austro-Hungary & Prussians + Germans civ correction (transforming it into Holy Roman Empire civ). I presented the Austro-Hungary & Prussians civs and Germans civ correction proposal in my topic.

I am a supporter of two European DLCs rather than just one. In this way, the creators would have more time to create the content of not only civs, but also European maps (including complete new flaury and flora, Minor Nations, and even continental character for old civs). The first European DLC could add Western European maps and the second European DLC could add Eastern European maps.

Of course, changes to old civs should be free, so the two European DLCs could compensate for the devs’ work in updating old content. European DLCs that would offer brand new European maps (and all brand new content related to it), new civs, a lot of new Historical Battles could even be more expensive than the African DLC for the fact that it would include additional creator work to update old european civs (which are now too boring and simple compared to the rest of the civs. Old European civs should get a more continental character).

A DLC offering Italians, Austria-Hungary & Prussians civs could cost 14.99 $, while a DLC offering Danes & Polish-Lithuania civs could cost 9.99 $.

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The idea of replacing conventional politicians with Electors is fine. But simply copying the US federal system and the Mexican revolutions doesn’t seem like a very cool thing to me, I think we should keep in mind something more unique to better reflect the politics of the sacred empire.
Certainly you know the history of Germany and Austria better than I do, tell me when the elections were held, what actually happened so that candidate X was chosen as the new emperor. For example, after Charles VI’s death, the voter of Bavaria was elected. What prompted other voters to choose him over the Habsburg suitor? Were resources? Military force? Any different alliances?
I think that’s the kind of thing the chosen Age up voter should provide, for example access to a different technology, or a small trickle of resources, or a limited amount of some military unit that the Germans don’t have by default.

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This is what I meant when I wrote about Elector mechanics. The electors would not be portraits, but flags of the countries included in HRE +, additionally, a mini map of this country could be shown.

Each Elector would offer different content (Home City cards; Unique Unit; shipment; upgrades for buildings or units, etc.).

  • War Wagoon could become a Unique UU that we would get after choosing Bohemian Elector
  • Settler Wagon could become a Unique UU that we would get after choosing Bavarian Elector
  • Uhlan could become a Unique UU that we would get after choosing Saxon Elector

Uhlan would replace by the Ritterschaft (very fast heavily armed knight on horseback, armed with lances. Unfortunately, it would be an easy target for artillery and gunpowder.) as the default cavalry unit in Germans civ.

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I liked the idea but I don’t think we can take the units that are now standard for the Germans to make them the units you get at age up, maybe that could make people think it’s a very drastic change.
I also see a certain resistance to change because people only want to play one way, so anything that forces them to play a little differently is reason for them to be against a change like the one we’re proposing.
On the other hand we can think about the benefits of each elector, but I think we have to include in the list the Archduke of Austria (I think they also voted, but I’m not sure), the Arch-Treasurer (Brandenburg-Prussia) and the ecclesiastical principalities (they could give as a bonus something related to Church technologies, or even an update from the priests to monsignors, canons, or other kind of promotion of the Church hierarchy)

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A “Deutsche Reiche” would be a replacement for the standard revolution for the Germans civ. There would only be two choices: the Kingdom of Prussia and the Austrian Empire. Choosing one of them would completely change the Home City table of cards, units (from Age 2) and buildings (+ one unique building and some buildings get new look), and of course the flag. Choosing one of these two options would not provide a return as in the case of Mexicans civ, but it would be possible to “delve” into these options by akualizing the Kingdom of Prussia into the German Empire or the Austrian Empire in Austria-Hungary - it would be like changing Yucatán into Maya (available as a revolution for Mexicans civ). The German Empire and the Austria-Hungary would offer brand new Unique Units to replace units from Age 3 and get one unique building.

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After choosing the Austrian Empire for example and we are in Fortress Age, how could we move to Industrial? Alliance policies? For example joining Bavaria and enabling Chevauleger for training?
This is another thing that currently bothers me about the Germans, Spain is encouraged to use archaic units, but they can train modern units, whereas Germans in the Industrial Age should focus on Doppels and WarWagons…

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You can always arrange the options list during each Age Up in such a way that you could play the same game as the current Germans civ, e.g:

  • Age 2 * Bohemia - available War Wagoon
  • Age 3 * Bavaria - available Settler Wagon
  • Age 4 * Saxony - available Uhlan + Receive Uhlans with Home City shipments (except TEAM ones)

Austria and Prussia would already be presented in the best possible way - “Deutsche Reiche”

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I do think we should temper our expectations a bit. I can’t claim to have any insider information, but we do know that a dev has basically said Austria will not happen because of what the Germans represent. I dont think it is far fetched to extend this sentiment to Prussia as well.
I also don’t think it is plausible to expect any large changes in the Germans as they are currently. Unlike the Aztecs, the Germans are a popular civ and perform very well. Large changes would in all likelyhood result in complaints from the playerbase.
Therefore this topic, a revolution or revolution like system seems like the only option the devs might consider. Electors as politicians might be fine, but when you only change a portrait for a flag you might as well spare the effort.

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Yes, we must find the balance point in the suggested change, it cannot be something simply superficial or something very radical.
What would be the best way to test the proposed changes? A survey maybe?

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It would be the Industrial Age.

Great idea. Of course, the model of this unit should be as “Bavarian” as possible.

And it is my ideas that give the choice. You can create your own Germans civ by making your Age Up choices, just the way you want it - because Germany was diverse.

A “Deutsche Reiche” would radically change everything in Germans civ. It would be sort of like installing several civs in one civ. The Kingdom of Prussia and the Austrian Empire would offer us units from the 18th century (the rule of the Habsburg-Lorraine dynasty and the rise of Prussia + Napoleonic wars). The German Empire and Austro-Hungary would offer us modern units from the 19th century (the establishment of Austria-Hungary and the unification of Germany).

3 Likes