No, they shouldnt have lol
Austrians and Prussians are both Germans, not a single sentence you can come up with to change that fact.
So many areas and countries not represented yet and you want two German civs? Lol. Not to mention that Prussians and Austrians would ignore all the other Germans. The current civ represents all Germans and you propose to remove that?
The German civ is based on the HRE, and has elements of both Prussia and to some extend Austria already in it.
But Germany as we understand it didn’t exist back in the aoe3 timeline and prussia and austria had different military doctrines and even fought each-other.
Britain and USA are both Anglos and Spain and Mexico are both Hispanic so there’s no reason you can’t have two German civs.
Prussia could be an excellent opportunity to bring unique mechanics to the European civs; the federal state age up would fit perfectly with their march towards German unification.
The houses of Wittelsbach, Oldenburg, Hanover, Habsburg, and Wettin aren’t enough for you? Or the numerous Germanic mercenaries like Jagers, Pandours, Swiss Pikemen, etc?
It’s like 90% Austrian. The unique units are non-Germans from the Austrian Empire and the unique church upgrades are all Catholic. Only superficial things like the leader and home city are Prussian.
And I have been against the introduction of both of them since their first anouncements. And I already listed to you two reasons why we shouldnt have two German civs and I can give you 1 more
We dont need two as all Germans are already represented it the current civ
1 civ is enough as we lack a lot of other regions and civs currently not in the game, why two German civs? What decides wether a people group should be split into multiple others? British into English and Scottish? Spain into Castille and Aragon? Italians into Naples and Venice? We dont need that many European civs, we simply dont.
There is only so much of unique mechanics you can do and almost all civs added since DE have had a “unqiue” mechanic or playstyle that another civ already had or comes really close to it.
The whole point of the culture groups is that they share mechanics. Warchiefs have their own age up style, shared unique buildings and such, same for Asian Dynasties and African Royales and the Revolutionary civs.
Making a civ with such a mechanic would automatically make it a non-Euro style civ, the same way the US isnt a warchiefs civ. And besides such a mechanic would add nothing of value as it isnt unique and most times it will be either way too OP or already done by another civ(s)
Those arent a civ are they? Besides it are royale houses/mercenaries not people groups lol.
War wagon: unit used by the Bohemians during the Hussite wars and a little after till around 1515 or maybe a bit later. In other words before Austria aquired the Bohemian lands.
Dopplesoldner: German landsknecht mercenary which got payed double as they would be typically on the frontlines. Not just Austrian, used throughout the Holy Roman Empire and the first Landsknecht regiments were Swiss.
Uhlan: Polish origin, but used by most European nations, including Prussia and Austria, thus not exclusively Austria.
Settler Wagon: clearly based on South-German esthetic, with strong influence of Bavaria I would say.
Royale guard unit Needle gunner: clearly a reference to the Prussian needle gunners.
Berlin: capital of Brandenburg, Brandenburg-Prussia and later Prussia.
Frederick the Great: leader of Prussia.
And there is probably more to point out but from this 3/7 include Austria and 0/7 is just Austria. Now I am not good at math, but as far as I can tell 3/7 nor 0/7 is 90%
ES clearly underestimated the amount of Prussiaboos in the world when they made the Germans civ.
This is false, the first landsknecht regiments were founded by archduke Maximilian in imitation of the swiss mercenaries.
Also Uhlans have an Austrian inspired RG name.
Well I dont know what to tell you, because some time ago I thought the same, but then I came across the wiki page and in Dutch the Swiss mercenaries are called landsknechte.
Either way when Maximilian raised the first landsknecht regiment he was actually the duke of Burgundy, not the archduke of Austria yet, not for some years. While Burgundy isnt Swistzerland it also isnt Austria and regardless it doesnt defeat any of my previous arguments as Dopplesoldners were mercenaries used throughout the Holy Roman Empire and such.
Czapka doesnt refer to Austria at all, Czapka is a Polish style hat, unless the DE devs changed their Royale Guard name sometime.
The swiss mercenaries are called Reislauffer in German and they would certainly object to be called Landsknechte considering the fierce and bloody rivalry between the two groups. The Swiss didnt take the imitation in kind and encounters between the two were extremely bloody giving rise to the term of “bad war”.
I can imagine confusion differentiating the two though, considering their dress and tactics being basically identical. The first Landsknechte being trained by Swiss instructors in Bruges mightve contributed to both being called Landknechte in Dutch. The wiki page in Dutch is certainly quite lacking in information though.
Czapka is litteraly translated as “cap” its kinda a weird choice for a RG name. But thats par de course in the Germans I guess.
The style of cap however was first introduced in Austrian service. Granted probably by Galician Poles in their service.
The point is that its not exclusively Austrian which the discussion is partially about.
Thats the whole issue with the Austrians, or rather the Habsburg Monarchy as there wasnt even a real Austrian empire till the collapse of the HRE. They were known for their multi ethnic empire, there probably are some obscure Austrian units to be found to represent them but their forces were logically multi ethnic as well. All references to them showcase this as seen with Polish Uhlans, Germans Landsknechte and Bohemian War wagons. Likewise the faction has a mercenary focus, another thing the Habsburg empire was known for.
Just look at the Habsburg royal house, there is German line infantry and the mounted infantry speak Croatian. And then a mercenary tech and Hungarian units. Even in this representation with limited space they focus on the diversity of the empire. You’d hardly find pure Austrian references even if they made a brand new Austrian civ, as representing a diverse number of people is what they are known for.
That is probably why the few Prussian references stick out so much and even have people claim the Germans “might as well be called Prussians”. It just sticks out so much when compared to the rest of the faction. Even if there barely is any, it is what you see most clearly at first glance.
Again, there are no 100% Austrian units in the game, yes there are units which are used by the Austrians, but thats logical as the Germans are based on the HRE of which Austria for a big time period was the emperor.
Also again, the War wagon is in not a single way, Austrian. It was Hussite and was out of use before Bohemia became part of the Habsburg domains.
Dopplesoldner arent just Austrian either again not a single unit of the Germans is just Austrian.
And my dude, mercenaries were used by almost every single country during the medieval and renaissance time. Austria is in no way an exception and its rather the HRE in which a lot of mercenaries were used than just Austria
Germans are representing the HRE so Austria and Prussia are both in the game. Hungary is also in the game as a revolt and there is really no need for a special Austria civ.
Sure, but that applies to nearly every european unit… longbows, curassiers, karabiner, tercio, organ gun, bombards, galleys, leather cannons, they all were used in other ingame civs aswell … and you could argue, that units like caroleans or strelets were in reality not that different from their other european counterparts
So what would be a truely unique austrian unit?
It’s pretty well established that the “Germans” are basically Austria:
Most of the things you have listed still point to Austria.
In the “Germans” you’ve got Polish, Czech, and German unique units. The only entity that encompassed all of those is the Austrian Empire.
Polish Uhlans would need to come from the Galician or Danzig regions of Austria or Prussia which fall outside of the HRE.
War Wagons were basically out of use by the game’s period and are more just to represent the Czechs who were primarily part of the Austrian dominions.
Settler Wagons are generically southern German, but that region was broadly under Austrian aegis (Prussia formed the North German Confederation for a reason). Some areas are even under direct Austrian control as shown on this map:
The Catholic and Austrian themed church upgrades are exclusionary the majority of German regions that were Protestant.
Wallensteins Contracts - Austrian Reference
Tilly’s Discipline - Austrian Reference
Palatine Settlements - Austria controlled territory in these regions.
Polish Winged Hussars - Reference to Battle of Vienna
Changing Prussian references to turn “Germany” into Austria would be an issue if it required disruptive changes like changing units or mechanics. Fortunately, removing the Prussian references would have no gameplay impact whatsoever.
House of Hohenzollern - This is a very recent change in name and probably not set in stone
Changing “Needle Gunners” is as simple as altering a few snippets of text.
If Prussia were ever added to split Germany, the leader and home city could just be transferred to them. Creating an Austrian appropriate home city and leader (such as Vienna and Metternich) wouldn’t be more work than any other new home city and leader.
I dont need to argue for a truely unique Austrian unit as thats the entire point of my argument, the German civ is based on the HRE, neither just Prussia nor Austria.
Most people would consider that Polish people lived in Silesia as well. So the HRE includes all those three aswell. And the HRE got dissolved in 1806, seeing that the game is longer its only logical that for that remaining period Austria and Prussia are used as the main source for units as they were the biggest two German states.
Wrong. Yes war wagons were used by the Bohemian, but during the Hussite wars and not much later then 1515, Bohemia became part of the Habsburgs in 1526. So no the War wagon is not Austrian, these are facts no matter what you state.
Influence ≠ their territory. Austria was the country from which most emperors of the HRE came, only logical they are more dominant in the empire. Bavaria was also very well independent. North German Confederation has also 0 to do with this. The North German Confederation was formed because Bismarck didnt like the fact that the South German states were Catholic while the Nothern ones were Protestant. Austria had already lost the brothers war.
Wallenstein was a general leading the Holy Roman army, not the exclusive Austrian army, although it was heavily dominated by them.
Also general in the Holy Roman army NOT Austrian army.
Wrong wrong wrong. It refers mainly to the German settlers in the New World who fled form mainly the Palatinate, which is not Austria.
Or you know… they refer to Poland? And sure, Vienna aswell, but how does that make the Hussars Austrian? They were commanded by Polish and their alligence was Polish.
Every card name is also easily edited isnt it?
All you have done is add 0 worth of value to the discussion, not a single thing you mentioned is exlusively Austrian, more things are form the HRE then from Austria, because, you know, its based on the HRE.
Germans = HRE, with some parts being from post-HRE Prussia and Austria.
What is so hard to understand?
yeah i know, but i think its a weak argument since its true for many euro civs
i have to correct that … Tilly and Wallenstein where both austrian generals since, they served the (austrian) HRE Emperor; in 1863 both where included in the list of “berühmtesten, zur immerwährenden Nacheiferung würdiger Kriegsfürsten und Feldherren Österreichs” (famous commanders of austria). Also they where commanders of the Imperial Army and not the Army of the Holy Roman Empire - its a difference, since the Imperial army is under direct control of the emperor.
“The Imperialists effectively became a standing army of troops under the Habsburg emperor from the House of Austria, which is why they were also increasingly described in the 18th century as “Austrians”, although its troops were recruited not just from the Archduchy of Austria but from all over the Holy Roman Empire.” (from Imperial Army (Holy Roman Empire) - Wikipedia)
in a time before the nationstate and with such a wierd construct the HRE was, its really hard to say “X was or was not exclusively austrian” since there were no national identities …
But yeah, after all its just a game from 2005, where some ES-Dev googled some semihistorical stuff together and mixed it with stereotypes (settlerwagon I’m looking at you). So i agree, that they absolutely did not design the german civ to be “90% Austrian” and splitting the civ is definitely not the right way.
Lol, no need to be so salty. I guess a quote from one of the developers saying “Germany” is essentially Austria amounts to nothing.
Saying the “Germans” = Austria is also not excluding the HRE. The leaders of Austria were Holy Roman Emperors so the two entities are intertwined. My point is that nothing beyond a few superficial elements is Prussian and there could easily be room for Prussia as a civ while leaving “Germany” largely unaltered. With Prussia, you could get a unique European civ that’s not actually a “euro-civ”. There’s also an unbelievable amount of scenarios, historical battles, and campaigns that would be made possible by the inclusion of both Prussia and Austria. A vague, amorphous HRE-Germany doesn’t have anywhere near that potential.
Uhlans developed in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Unlike Galicia and Danzig, Silesia was under German control that entire time.
If they were going for the HRE exclusively there would not be so many units from non-German ethnicities. The fact that it’s a mix of Germans, Poles, and Bohemians points to a multi-ethnic empire; à la Austrian Empire. All of the unique cards and references (Battle of Vienna, Catholic generals, etc) are Austrian or southern German. Northern German cultural reference is entirely absent. It is pretty clear that current Germany is supposed to represent an Austrian dominated HRE and could easily be split into Austria and Prussia.
Exactly, the HREmperor, which sure was an Austrian, but that doesnt matter as the Germans represent the HRE.
Tilly was born in the Spanish Netherlands, not Austria and fought for multiple countries including the Spanish.
Wallenstein was born in Bohemia, so yeah, part of the Habsburg lands, but I wouldnt say he was Austrian, just German, but then again Austrians are Germans aswell, so I guess you can count him as Austrian, but the card references to the fact that he himself raised an army to fight for the HREmperor, which sure was an Austrian guy, but that is more in favor of it being a reference to the HRE than anything else.
In a time were nationalism was high and people searched for national heroes this is logical, but also 1863 ≠ the time period in which they lived and Tilly was just not Austrian.
Yeah so another point you make which only supports my argument of the Germans being based on the HRE?
Tilly and Wallenstein didnt live in the 18th century now did they? And this has more to do with the fact most emperors during this period came from Austria, but again, its the HRE so it only supports my point.
This entire thing is pointless as the Germans are primarily based on the HRE, in which it doesnt matter wether this or that was Austrian, Prussian or Bavarian as all three were part of the HRE making any such arguments pointless.
That quote isnt saying Germans = Austria, that quote is saying Austria is included with the Germans.
And how is saying Germans = HRE excluding Austria? There are way more things pointing to it being based primarily on the HRE than pointing to Austria. I mean everything before 1806 points to the HRE, not Austria, as Austria was part of the HRE.
You know historical battles dont need an entire new civ right? And in fact the current German civ is perfect as it is for historical battles.
Any civ can be a unique civ. France can be reworked, Britain can be reworked, Denmark can be added as a unique civ. Prussia is not unique in that way.
Silesia actually had a decent amount of Polish people living there.
Also if Uhlans have their origin in Poland-Lithuania, then it doesnt have its origin in Austria now does it? Prussia also used Uhlans, France too.
Bruh, do you even know what the HRE is? Let me list some non-German people who lived in the HRE for you:
Points out to it being the HRE. Again again again, the war wagon was NEVER used by the Austrians nor during the time that Bohemia was part of Austria.
Bohemians lived in the HRE how many times do I have to tell you this?
The HRE was multi ethnic, jezus christ.
Also again, Uhlans were used by most countries. You are so tunnel vishioned that the Uhlan can only refer to Austria, when the Prussians also used them. Cant it just be a reference to both? As you know, the civ us the Germans?
