The Holy Roman Empire will not be divided…except on my cadaver…
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The same would apply with the Italians and there they are… In addition, longbowmens are not so bad, since they continued to be used until 1642 within the royalist army of Charles I…
Of course, the civilization is called “Germans”, ergo it represents the German civilization/people as a whole, not a German nation per se… for something it has the flag of the Holy Roman Empire, which was “Germanic” for a reason…the same applies to the British who before 1707, were England, Scotland and Wales for separate (Ireland would only join in 1801 after the Irish rebellion of 1798)…
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You are the one claiming Austrian generals are not actually Austrian but actually just HRE.
Germans don’t have to be reworked… because they are Austria. No one in their right mind is going to turn France into a federal state civ.
The fact that Prussia and Austria were on opposing sides of many of the most consequential wars of the age makes the current civ pretty inadequate for scenarios.
Not sure why you’re getting so worked up about this.
I never said Uhlans weren’t used by Prussia or the HRE is not multi ethnic. Polish Uhlans just aren’t an HRE thing. They’re a Prussian or Austrian thing.
In the end, the “Germans” don’t represent an inclusive HRE. They represent Austria and the Austrian dominated parts of the HRE. Prussia is absent from “Germany” and would be a worthwhile addition to the game.
bro, im on your side, but the argumentation is flawed… Its pointless to make such statements about identity in the HRE and at that time. If you serve the english crown as a general - you are an english general. If you serve the austrian emperor, you are a austrian general. Its not at all important where you have been born… Blücher is a prussian General, despite being born in (at that time) swedish controlled lands. Prinz Eugen von Savoyen is a austrian general despite being born in Paris. Wellington was born in Dublin, Juan de Austria was born in Regensburg… So if you add a HC with the name “Wellington”, you wouldnt say “oh its a refference to Ireland”… the identity is based on what you do, who you serve and what context we have. So its no problem for Wallenstein to be austrian general and bohemian politician at the same time, but if the HC context is warfare, its a austria refference.
So yeah, i know they didnt live in the 18th century and i know 1863 was on a highpoint of nationalism, but thats the context … since then, both generals where always mentioned as austrian generals/generals in austrian service … its in german and austrian history books, its in museums, in documentaries, … so the public perception is (and thats really the only thing that counts on a PCgame) they where austrian (especially since the 30yrs war is basically a civil war over who has the power in the HRE and they serve the austrian side)
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germans where designed to represent all german speaking entities at that time (if you look at the history section in the compendium, they write about colonization attempts in venezuela and in westafrica - nothing the austrians did… also there is a somewhat anti-catholic paragraph about martin luther, wich is also not austrian at all) and then the devs added ulans and warwagons because they didnt know better (else they would speak polish and chzech). the german civ is “ok” … it needs some rework, but calling it austria and designing a new prussian civ is no solution. as many said, the solution are the royal houses and some new cards.
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Thats not really true now is it? We might not like how it is done but Prussia is represented in the current Germans.
have you checked out this mod? It adds a Prussian civ and reworks the Germans towards a more HRE themed civ. it’s not the same as an official release ofcourse, but its a lot of fun every now and then.
Yes, remember the first flag in the original game, it looked very Prussian.
In fact, it would be easier to rename the current Germans to Prussians and put the old flag back. Rename church techs and Home city cards.
But I prefer a light rework with a single German civilization, with more specialization options with royal houses, home city cards or politicians (like the federal states of US).
That works okay for a game focused entirely on the new world. A generic Germany is pretty representative of their disunited colonial endeavours.
But the game has now expanded to the European theatre and it would be a shame to leave out or gloss over the monumental conflicts between the Prussians and Austrians. The HRE was a relic of the past at this point in history and is more appropriate for the AoE4 timeframe.
Anything can get thrown in the compendium. What’s actually in the game is what really counts and currently there’s more references to Jan Hus than Luther.
No, my point is it doesn’t need some rework. There is such a thorough overlap with Austria that it could be renamed without any rework required.
Prussia is it’s own thing that could be a novel and interesting civ. It could expand the diversity of the European powers by falling outside the euro-civ mold. Splitting Germany into Austria and Prussia would also facilitate the inclusion of tons of historical scenarios that cover the conflicts of early modern Europe.
Royal Houses are a good consolation for HRE representation if Germany got split.
No offense, but if you think that thing looked like a Prussian flag you either never really looked at it or never saw a Prussian flag before. Removing that weird thing was definately the right thing to do.
And just ignore the presence of doppelsoldner and war wagons I guess? Those have nothing to do with Prussia. Placing a Prussian flag on the French and renaming stuff there would make a better Prussian civ than the Germans would.
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Well they could add more cards with references to Prussia and Frederick the Great as they did with the Hohenzollern House team card…
German politicians can change for Imperial Electors and that’s it…
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Sure, I agree on everything you said… the civ of the Germans serves as a historical battle, e.g. the war of the 30 years and the great Turkish war… and of course all the civs can be reworked (as they did with the hauds and the lakotas)…
Perhaps because they werent Austrian German? Atleast Tilly wasnt. They were in service of the Holy Roman Emperor, which sure at the time was Austria, but that doesnt matter as the Germans primarily represent the HRE., and what I have told you numerous times by now, Austria is part of the HRE, so anything related to Austria is HRE, except for the Uhlans, if speaking about origin, but even then uhlans werent just used in Galicia.
Exactly and neither should Germans be split, if we had like 50+ civs, maybe then Prussia could be a thing but currently just not.
Both sides can be German? Devs can even make 1-2 scenario specific units or skins. Add some unique cards and you have a historical battles civ for you. I mean you have the Barbary state aswell.
Perhaps because you say wrong things?
Yet everytime you talked about them you say the referencr Austria.
Yet you say Polish and Bohemian means its automatically refering to the multi-ethnic state of Austria, which sure as hell makes it sound like it.
Who both are German? I say Germans is primarily based on the HRE (as they are), but in 1806 it gets dissolved so only logical a few things are post-HRE as the games time frame goes behond 1806. Thats the advantage of using people groups instead of countries like AoE IV.
Yet they do. Dopplesoldner, War wagon, Settler wagon, flag, cards etcetera, all refer to the entirety of the HRE. There needs to be a balance in the amount of unique units. Germans already are a euro civ with more than usual.
No they represent the HRE, of which Austria is a highly influental part so no shit 1 or 2 things refer to them. Saying its an Austrian civ is just factually wrong.
War wagon - Bohemian
Uhlan - Prussian, Austrian
Settler wagon - clearly South German, so Baden, Wurttemberg, Bavaria, Austria etcetera
Dopplesoldner - basically entirety of HRE
Palatine settlements - refer to mainly the Germans if the palatine and Rhine region
Team House of Hohenzollern - Brandenburg/Prussia
Flag - HRE
Tilly and Wallenstein - HRE/ Austrian emperor
Needle gunner - Prussia
Its perfectly balanced between Austrians, Prussians and the remaining Germans in the sense of the amount of territories they all held.
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Wellington was British, Ireland was part of Britain.
Well I can agree on Wallenstein being Austrian (although he fought for the HRE emperor, which although in this case was Austria does not mean he was in service of Austria, he was in service of the HRE) Tilly is just not. He also fought as a Spanish and Bavarian general so he is then Spanish/Austrian/Bavarian? Are mercenary captains just dozens of ethncities?
And as you say, to which country you serve you can be considered part of, well… they both served for the HRE, look it up on wikipedia, not specifically Austria (for both allegience is HRE and on the German page I did a quick look for Tilly to be fair, but I dont see Ostenreich stated of which I looked trough), again, because Austria was the emperor, doesnt mean by them being in service of the HRE emperor and the HRE that they are Austrian.
i think this argument could go in cirlces forever 
yes and no, its depending on the context … if tilly was a card in the 80 yrs war historical map, he would be a spanish (or HRE) refference, thats what i tried to say with my Wallenstein = austrian general & bohemian politican statement
(but the truth is, its also depening on the POV… so i guess, czech aoe players see “Wallenstein” and think of him as bohemian)… idk, how you see tilly in the netherlands, if he is representing the spanish opression or the HRE not letting the netherlands leave it (or as a belgian traitor ;D ). So yeah, maybe its my german bias, when i see Jäger/Giant Grenadiers/Palatinate Settlement and immideatly think: “oh its a refference to the ‘german’ part of the HRE” and then i see wallenstein/tilly/ in ‘contrast’ as “oh those pro-austria dudes” … and someone from outside says “its all just HRE” (so maybe somewhat comparable to outsiders calling the whole netherlands “Holland”, but dutch people see the/a difference).
Mercenary Captains are seldome claimed by a country for its history, because their allegiance is (most of the time) not patriotic/idealisitc, but materialistic. There are some exceptions, where they hold a keyrole in history (e.g. when they cause/join a rebellion) and become some type of national hero.
(if you answer, i’ll read it, but i wont reply ^^’ not because i hate you or smth … but this arguement has to stop somewhere xD)
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Agreed so I wont go into the Tilly thing anymore as we both have different opinions on the matter and neither is going to be changing their mind soon haha
Last thing though, I am historically obsessed with the HRE, so this
isnt me saying Netherlands is Holland, its me saying Holland is the Netherlands (together with the other 11 provinces)
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Wikipedia already has the politician window 
Then we can imagine it as a big button in the town center, a bit like the Asian consulate but where the imperial politicians will change the whole faction: adding a passive bonus, one or two units (or replace of them) and technologies.
One of the passives could be sending other units from the home city rather than ulhan.
Neither did Italy and we have an Italians civ now. Honestly, some Italian-like cards for Germany that reference the several German states within the HRE would be enough, imo.
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In fact, it doesn’t have to be something that complex, for example, just change some shared politicians for new unique ones:
- Swap Bishop for Elector of Mainz;
- Swap Marksman for Grosser Kurfürst;
- Swap some Age IV politician for Arch-Marshal;
The Cards that send troops from royal families may reference Imperial Circles
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