You made a very reasonable argument until this. Let’s not make a civ ultra-super broken only because it is the worst land map civ in RM.
1 Like
I worked it out. Only till castle age the food collection rate is 15%. After wheelbarrow, it comes down to 10% like old Indians. Yet they had villager discount bonus. Without a food bonus, there is no point in making elephants as Dravidians. Maybe they can get wood and food upgrades for half cost, which will allow them to spam halbs and skirms. But it has to be a common bonus not map specific.
1 Like
How about giving Kshatriyas to Dravidians and Medical Corps to Gurjaras? Kshatriyas is clearly OP on Gurjaras currently and Dravidian units cost a lot of food for what they do, so Kshatriyas could help. Maybe take away supplies to keep their champs balanced.
5 Likes
Still OP. They better get a discount on all elephant units, or at least EA. And obviously Medical Crops need a buff.
Reading at the entire response it feels like you don’t play open maps or face ranged units often. And hence you think urumis are strong and Cataphracts or other low p.armor high dps infantry uu are common. In reality its not. Some infantry uu with low p.armor are made once in a while but some of them like urumis are extremely unnecessary.
40 farms or 50 farms it doesn’t matter. Urumi swords don’t have any of the characteristics of a good melee unit. Neither good hp, nor p.armor, nor low cost. Before running out of gold, more than half the civs are going to do light-cav/hussar + arbalest/heavy CA army and a third of the civs are going to do cavalry + hand canoneers. Only a few civs are going to stay melee throughout the game like Slavs or Bulgarians. And when Dravidians face these civs, game isn’t going to go to 45-50 mins if you try to go for Urumis. Those civs are quite strong in castle age and will clean you up.
You can make an argument in favor of urumis if they costed 10 gold or less. At their current price point why would you go for Urumis when there are champs with 1 p.armor and better productivity.
By late game if you mean 50+ min then yes but by then even the Dravidian player is going to be nearly out of gold and its extremely terrible decision to waste the left over gold on Urumis.
This is a fair point that I agree with as well. Too little eco bonus and doesn’t compensate for the lack of knights.
5 Likes
This could be a good civ bonus too instead of fish collection. Make military units cost 25% less food. Supplies can be removed. Let those trash units go on a diet. Dravidian spam can be a good counter in castle age.
Medical corps is another problem. But I’m sure devs will replace it or buff it knowing how unpopular it is now. I’m personally in favor of making it like Goth’s Anarchy since Urumi swordsmen die too easily now to archers. It is impossible to mass them in open maps.
All you have done is complain “OP”. Franks collect berries 15% faster. Slav farms work 10% faster. Aztecs used to collect all resources at +5. Are these broken civ bonuses? Truly the economy bonus of 10-15% higher food will be underwhelming in castle age since gold units are OP here. But a 25% food discount could also work as suggested by another member. There is a chance of putting out elephant archers faster than knights come in for raiding. A elephant archer and skirm combo can be used to push back too.
Aztecs one was. Slavs had 15% faster and dominated every single tournament. And now you are combining all of them.
I’m guessing you will say “But Dravidians don’t have knight or eagle or camel”. But with 15% faster food income you will reach castle age even before opponent have 600 food at their stockpile. 2 BE will destroy the whole Feudal base.
Why are you selectively picking games where Dravidians lose. Should I do the same with the wins to say they need a nerf? Dravidians up until Elimination matches (since I didn’t count beyond that) had a high winrate, with a high draft rate. Should I pick a Gurjaras match against Mayans which they lost as an example of Gurjaras being weak and needing a buff too?
Dravidians have Wootz Steel Light Cavalry, those deal flat 11 damage. That’s not really something to underestimate, they’re on par with Cavalier in damage output, and they’re mobile enough.
1 Like
Only now you have mentioned a context to base your views. The eco bonus can be staggered then +5/+10/+15/+20 in every age. A civ win on a specific map just feels like cheating. The wood bonus and dock population bonus is enough to rush and win a naval war. The fishing bonus is really not much useful even in larger water maps if we don’t have a navy to protect fishing ships or back dock in safer waters.
Overall, they have a decent win rate somewhere close to 50%, but most of those games are played on water maps or shorefish heavy maps. That’s not most maps. People usually play full land maps, where they have no economic advantages whatsoever.
Gurjaras have something on land maps and water maps.
1 Like
The matches Dravidians won. They never went imperial. The Dravidian players already were so ahead based on earlier play. The problem is early castle age and that is the reason I specified that match. I don’t play as cleanly as villese otherwise I’ll upload my own video to show the problems.
1 Like
On top of that the tournament is on EW.
1 Like
Acclivity has Shore Fish? You’re also being selective to remove bonuses and paint Dravidians even worse.
Okay, early Castle Age, where Villese won vs Dogao as Dravidians vs Cumans.
‘Dravidians are terrible except on all the occasions where they won.’ Do you see how this sounds?
Which… is the tournament games are being linked from?
Which part of “most of those games” did you not understand?
To be fair, I didn’t mention the 200 wood bonus which does give you a headstart. But that’s not a long term economic advantage.
Also, I don’t have to make them look bad. Go to ageofstatistics, and check ELO>1700. They are like the 2nd/3rd worst. The numbers say that they are a weak civ.
1 Like
‘Dravidians are terrible except most of the games where they win.’ ?
They won somewhere around 50% of the games they played, and most maps they were picked on were water maps. They are supposed to be a water civ, that is supposed to be their strength. Still, an overall win which just about average. Look at that spreadsheet someone made here. They were terrible on land maps.
Also, I don’t have to make them look bad. Go to ageofstatistics, and check ELO>1700. They are like the 2nd/3rd worst. The numbers say that they are a weak civ.
Also, what do you have against this civ? They are already bottom tier, it’s not like this one buff will push them to like 55% win rate or something.
1 Like
They were picked on Northern Isles twice… Can you just look at Liquipedia, please?
Speaking of the Villese vs Liereyy game, Villese also tried for a full Infantry strategy, which backfired. How’s that fault of Dravidians?
My problem is when people bring up wrong arguments. I’m not saying they don’t deserve a buff - I think the Kshatriyas swap could be interesting, for example. Saying that they were terrible in Red Bull is wrong, and not only on water maps. Morass has no water. It has Shore Fish that you also want to remove from the equation. You speak about games won where they already had an advantage from other plays in Feudal, while also bringing up the Semi Final, where Villese was throwing away units in Feudal.
I should rephrase that. What I mean is water, hybrid, or shore fish maps. Basically anywhere where their fishing boost can be used.
Where did I mention that match? can you please link where I mentioned it?
It has Shore Fish that you also want to remove from the equation.
Yes, I do. Most of the games happen on land maps. That is just a statistical fact. In fact over 60% of games are played on arabia. I could make a civ which is extremely overpowered on maps where fish, boars, gold and stone are present within a 3-tile distance. Nobody would think it is useful or OP because those maps aren’t exactly common.
Also, their shorefish bonus isn’t even that strong, unless you don’t have a mill/dock up close. It is only really strong on maps where large areas with deep fish are common.
1 Like
Exactly, so you just want to remove their bonuses completely. There are very few maps that are just pure land maps, very often you have several maps that fall into that category.
Sorry, I lumped you together with the other poster. The ‘you’ was in plural.
Okay? Does every civ need to have amazing winrates on Arabia? Maybe we should give Turks Elite Skirmisher and Halberdier, because oh no, Arabia!!
So…why does it matter? We can add Morass to the conversation now. Bam, civ fixed!
Also, we can also add Frigid Lakes, because nobody made fishing ships there. The two ‘water’ maps then should be Northern Isles, which was played twice to a 50% winrate.