One of those differences that’s more apparent than real or impactful (also suggested mainly to help ease transition to Ratha, elephants being a secondary consideration). The Frank bonus is iconic and impactful because it affects their knightline and gives them the highest HP paladins, whereas Bengalis don’t even get knights. Similar idea with the Cumans, where the only point of overlap (light cav line) is pretty inconsequential. It’s almost like being concerned that a hypothetical new American civ getting an Eagle discount would step on the toes of the Goth infantry discount, or even that Slavs’ free Supplies is an unacceptable overlap. IMO this is one of the most obvious angles of buffing Bengalis without making them more generic (adding knights).
The other major change people have asked for is a general eco buff, but that seems harder to balance across a range of maps, and doesn’t necessarily solve the issue of their civ-centered units being clunky and hard to tech into.
Regardless of the effect in practical games, the overlapping compromises its uniqueness and beauty.
Then I would say make them accessable to Castle Age Parthian rather than free techs, which allows them to pay with their decent economy for a better power in the weak Castle Age, but no any effect in the Imperial Age.
That’s an okay idea, but still presents the current problem of them having to pay for techs before they can access any reasonably good Castle Age units. IMO even free Castle Age Parthian Tactics could possibly be fine since they lack CA, and still have to build a castle to access a unit that would be worse than Conqs even after free PT. Only issue is it might make their EAs too hard to counter with pikes, hence my preference for Husbandry or BL.
I want exactly what they need to pay. Castle Age Ratha and EA with Parthian Tactics are actually pretty good, since they’ve drastically improved their weaknesses, which shouldn’t come for free.
I don’t like giving Bengalis any free tech that actually helps their late game too, not to mention overlapping the bonuses of other civs (free Bloodlines for Franks, free Husbandry for Cumans, free Parthian Tactics for Tatars).
Forgot Tatars actually had that. Now that is indeed too much overlap. Of course their Rathas and EAs are fairly good once you get the upgrades, but the civ still suffers from having to overcome a lot of inertia before that point, and without many other viable units to fall back on.
Also not sure what you mean about free techs affecting their lategame though - the effect of something like free BL or Husbandry is a small early powerspike when Bengalis most need it, with negligible impact on lategame except as it may relate to helping them survive their awkward Castle Age and transition into their strengths. The impact of free early techs mostly washes out over the course of a game, and is only relevant if you can use them to gain an advantage.
Any free tech has more or less impact on the late game.
Even if you don’t start training units until the Imperial Age, free tech will still help you get more and better units faster.
The Bengalis need big help in the Castle Age and 0 help in the Imperial Age.
Castle Age Parthian Tactics is obviously more helpful to their Castle Age than the two you’ve mentioned, and in line with having no effect in the Imperial Age.
Not to mention the two overlap Franks ans Cumans. – The comparison here is for the bonus itself, regardless of which units of the civilization can benefit. I wouldn’t say those are impossible, but I think those are boring and don’t help that much.
Yeah. But since some people already complaining about their elephants, it won’t be a good decision.
People are asking to nerf all of them.
It is actually surprising that they have those techs. Technically they shouldn’t. Even from their game play, they are more archery ranged oriented civ, not stable.
Much more less than more in this case. Any buff to a civ at any point can be seen as improving their lategame relative to where they’d be without it, but free techs are most highly targeted to certain time windows, and that advantage dissipates very quickly if you don’t use it to gain a superior position within that window. Of all the buffs you could give a civ, free Techs/res/(units, to a lesser extent) are the ones that become least significant the more time passes since their receipt. Thus I find it odd to consider something like free Bloodlines or Husbandry as having any mentionworthy impact by Imp, and especially relative to any other more durable buff you could give them.
I have some sympathy for your suggestions for some pretty significant reworks of these civs to maximize historical realism, but ironically, at least from a development perspective, I don’t find that kind of change at all realistic or likely. It can be interesting to imagine reworks in this way, but I’ve never had reason to believe that realism will be a key driver in the devs’ changes.
If we’re history-maxing, sure, but the idea of a civ having any kind of credible mounted unit while missing both techs is sillier than being a little flexible with history for gameplay reasons. Not to mention how nonsense Rathas and BEs would be without them.
Not really, they’re supposed to be an elephant civ, those techs benefit elephants, and elephants need all the help they can get. If they didn’t have them, they’d need another elephant bonus instead.
Maybe I’m misinterpreting what those techs are supposed to represent, but I don’t think I agree. It’s not like their cavalry are riding wild horses. I’m not sure it even makes sense for Husbandry to be the name of a tech in a medieval game. Maybe in AoE1 it would make sense.
Not sure there’s a fully right or wrong way to interpret them, but I’ve always thought of bloodlines as specifically referring to horse or camel breeding to select for certain characteristics. (Was this done with elephants? Don’t know, but the icons certainly bias me to think predominantly in equine terms, the flexibility of the in-game term “mounted units” notwithstanding). Since the Bengalis largely imported their horses, I consider them not to have engaged in horse breeding (“Bloodlines,)” in a meaningful way, which is why history maxing would suggest they don’t get the tech, at least under my given interpretation. Husbandry is a little weirder as you note, and in this context just seems to refer to any kind of domestication of animals for war, so that’s more of a gimme. (What does that have to do with speed instead of calling the tech “Animal/Mount Training” or “War Exercises”? Who knows).
If we consider free Bloodlines, that’s like one free BE and one free militia. Very negligible tbh. That being said I like Castle age PT better (After all that was originally my proposal 11)
I also think a sort of power spike for a short period of time will be good for Bengalis.
I don’t care about historical accuracy honestly. I already mentioned my non-historical reasons.
Yeah we don’t have separate techs for horse, camel or elephant.
On reflection and after some “extensive research” (skim reading the Wikipedia article on war elephants), here’s my proposal: all elephant units gain +20 hit points and +10% movement speed, but are no longer affected by Husbandry or Bloodlines. This would make elephants easier to get going without changing their late-game stats, and also reflect history more accurately (since elephants were typically tamed rather than domesticated). Malay might need adjusting as a result, but they probably do anyway. I don’t think this would have a problematic effect on armoured/siege elephants because Gurjaras and Hindustanis will be researching Bloodlines and Husbandry anyway.
Not me. At least it’s less confusing than Furor Celtica (admittedly a low bar).
Don’t think this is a good comparison (11 @ militia). When you try to convert the bonus into some other form like this, you instantly lose a lot in translation, versus thinking about the utility the tech provides. If we’re going to do a unit equivalent comparison, this is 3 scouts worth of res, which is pretty significant in Feudal. The intent is to significantly improve Bengalis’ scout rush so that they can take better fights/get more vill kills, and buy more time for their needed Castle Age transitions (similarly to how Mongols play out sometimes). It also improves their early Castle Age slightly in that, while still lacking knights, their freely improved scoutline is more serviceable than before. Similar deal if you add husbandry on top of that.
That explains it . Again, I don’t mind the idea of early PT as it provides some flexibility, I just don’t see it as enough of a boost until late Castle. I guess making it available is nice, but there are so many techs it competes with that Bengalis already have to knock out of the way before they get decent Castle military. Want your ranged units to be able to hit anything? Need ballistics. Want Rathas to have decent DPs in either form? Need P-A-I-K-S. Want to survive until you get either to ele units or Rathas? Probably need to prioritize Xbow and probably 2nd Archer Armor over PT. Early Parthian tactics makes their late Castle Age stronger, but I don’t see it as providing enough early value. Whereas BL and/or Husbandry provide early value, and are useful whether you go Ratha, EA, or BE (assuming it gets some general buff). (Or just baking those buffs into ele units, as @TommoChocolate suggests).
Slightly disruptive, but sensible overall, and solves the visual mismatch of Armored and War Eles being considered as “mounted units.” I really don’t think Ele units in general are viable without Husbandry/speed at least (not that they tried very hard with Dravidians, lacking Elite and other key techs, and with a joke UT). I would miss the stat variety made possible by whether an Ele unit gets BL or not, but it’s a fairly minor impact for them overall given their large base HP pool.
Of course I quite understand. But again, my point is making the techs accessible earlier is even less significant than free techs as time goes by. In late game, even though free techs only has about 0.0000001 significance, however early accessible techs has very just 0 significance, which shows free techs fit so-called “any other more durable buff” more than early accessible techs.
Castle Age PT is far more subtle than free Bloodlines or free Husbandry, more help for weaker mid game and just 0 help for already strong late game. Free or not, you’ll always get these two techs in Castle Age, and affording their cost isn’t a problem for the Bengalis economy at all, but at the moment you can’t access PT in Castle Age even if you have enough resources.
It looks also weird, historically speaking, to give a civilization without a tradition of cavalry the bonus of keeping horses. At least you can explain that archers can shoot backwards on chariots and howdahs while moving. The most importantly, their similarity to bonuses from other civilizations makes them seem like lazy solutions.
From experience, I often see Bengalis are played like Koreans, going FC to use UU directly. It is seldom to see someone using Crossbow. On the other hand, I believe Castle Age PT will be very attractive to players. It greatly improves the ability to fight Skirmishers and Spearmen, and its price is affordable enough in the middle of the Castle Age.
When Bohemians used Crossbows, everyone went to access chemistry in the Castle Age, and Chemistry is a tech at the almost same price as PT.
Although I have already made that stance clear, should I thank you for your sympathy?
You missed the context. I was talking about late game. My reply was not to you. It was for UpmostRook9474 who thinks even in late game, free bloodlines is a considerable buff, and I disagree with this. Obviously the extra 20 HP has its own value in Feudal and Castle age if you play scout or EA or Ratha. But if you skip stable, go up 120 pop, and now you’re switching to stable unit, maybe BE or LC, you’re getting 1 free BE. That’s very small in late game.
I also proposed 60% wood discount on Uni techs. And, honestly, I’m liking this more than early access to PT nowadays.
It depends. It is +1/+1. PT is +1/+2. Bengalis need to switch from xbow to EA or Ratha, sooner or later.
Also aren’t most of the rulers of Bengal Sultanate have “Persian” origin?
Sure, you can try that, but it’s easier to stop or counter than even Mongol FC → UU, and even Korean WW is more useful right out the gate than Ratha with fewer upgrades necessary. Also, consider that with the comparison you’re making here, Koreans benefit directly from the free armor techs that instantly makes their UU more viable, which is similar to what I’m suggesting for Bengalis. Having to research a lot of techs just to make a UU decent, but still much less useful than Conqs or Mangudai with comparable upgrades (and without many other good options) just feels bad.
Seems reasonable, and I like its flexibility and freshness much more than early PT.
Hey, I didn’t think so.
My point is Free Bloodlines indeed give them more benefit to the late game than Castle Age PT anyway, and even if this additional benefit is very very meager (like my metaphor of 0.0000001), its existence is undeniable.
The main reasons I comparatively don’t like free techs or discounted techs are that firstly, they are less subtle, secondly, Bengalis economy is pretty enough to afford them, thirdly, they don’t seem to fit in with the historical fact, and finally and most importantly, they overlap with other civilization’s bonuses, not that they are useless, or considerable in the late game.
And to say about something fresh, discounts are a very traditional type of bonus, actually not as fresh as earlier accessible techs that didn’t be introduced until DE. But it is indeed interesting than free Bloodlines.
Oh… I still hope the tech wood discount can be given to Vietnamese. Well in this thread that’s not the point.
Combine both and you will get even fresher - LOTW introduced Burgundians with early cavalier that is 50% cheaper. For Bengalis - University and Ballistic available in Feudal Age and cost 50% less. 11
Honestly, earlier parthian tactics feels much weirder from a historical point of view.
They should have camels, yes, since the Thar desert was a consistent part of their dominion. The problem is the overly exaggerated focus made on camels, as if they were the core of the army, and the insulting lack of even the most basic heavy cavalry.
. Again, I don’t mind the idea of early PT as it provides some flexibility, I just don’t see it as enough of a boost until late Castle. I guess making it available is nice, but there are so many techs it competes with that Bengalis already have to knock out of the way before they get decent Castle military. Want your ranged units to be able to hit anything? Need ballistics. Want Rathas to have decent DPs in either form? Need P-A-I-K-S. Want to survive until you get either to ele units or Rathas? Probably need to prioritize Xbow and probably 2nd Archer Armor over PT. Early Parthian tactics makes their late Castle Age stronger, but I don’t see it as providing enough early value. Whereas BL and/or Husbandry provide early value, and are useful whether you go Ratha, EA, or BE (assuming it gets some general buff). (Or just baking those buffs into ele units, as 
