I agree with that
They took inspiration from TAD’s Indians but those are also awfully designed.
Bengalis and Dravidians are both Indian civs, both weak. They are often discussed together. It might be fine.
Althouth in the name of Parthian, what Parthian Tactics actually represent has nothing to do with the Persians. It is represented by the ability to shoot backwards while moving forward, symbolizing the proficiency and military tradition of mounted archery. For example, the Japanese Yabusame.
Probably not. It means that they had mastered the excellent technique of shooting backwards early, just on chariots and howdahs and not on horseback. Of course these are my personal interpretations. I also stated it’s mostly the similarity issue that makes free Bloodlines seem lazy ans ununique, not all because of historical factors.
The horse archers of Parthia, now part of modern Iran, were renowned for their ability to shoot arrows at pursuers, whether the archers were in real or feigned retreat. Being able to shoot at enemies while withdrawing was very irritating to the enemy, especially when pursuers were too slow to close the gap. Although the Parthians were an ancient people, their tactics were adopted by later civilizations that employed horse archers and their name remained attached to the maneuver. The phrase “parthian shot” has come to mean any comment made while exiting a discussion. -The Conquerors manual
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I can’t believe there are people who never read the Parthian Tactics description.
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How could I have not seen it. Maybe it’s a misunderstanding caused by my poor English expression.
My point is, this tactic was made famous by the Parthians, but it has nothing to do with whether the executor of this tactic has Persian blood or not. If you’re good at shooting backwards while moving forward, you’re good at Parthian tactic, whether you’re Persian or not.
I tried to mean the opposite.
If you are Persian, you are “probably” better at Parthian Tactics.
All BE civs are often discussed together. Maybe you can exclude Khmer and Burmese.
I simplify it even further. For me parthian tactics is an abstraction of proficiency of mounted archery. A civ can have PT even if historically inaccurate for balance reasons, like Burmese. I’m fine with that. But a direct and explicit bonus for PT shouts “These guys were good at horse archery”.
In the end, whether the civ was or wasn’t good at horse archery (or shooting backwards, w/e) should not be a limiting factor for why a civ should or shouldn’t have the tech. After all, Chinese don’t have Hand Cannons and Bombard Cannons for a reason.
More generally, gameplay techs can be an inspiration at times, but shouldn’t always make way for historical realism when the tech would improve the gameplay of the civ a lot.
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If we need to make elephant civs like Dravidians viable, we need to understand why elephants were extensively used in India to replace chariots and even kings, generals #### #### in battle compared to horses. Elephants were the tanks of their time. They would run, charge fast and break though enemy lines. They could outrun, trample fleeing infantry and demoralize a broken line. To replicate that in AOE2, we need to bump speed of battle elephant and elephant archer to 1 for all elephant civs. The armoured/siege elephant can be 0.7 since they would carry heavy armour. Without elephants acting/fighting like elephants, they will be a meme.
The medical corps has no point being applied only to elephants. Medical corps were used by Cholas for whole army. If they want to apply medical corps, they can make all military units heal 20 hp per minute. If their army is going to be a meat shield, let it become meatier after medical corps.
Regarding dravidians, what I have seen is the fish bonus is bogus. Their fish collection bonus of +15 is kind of fishy and doesn’t work at all. They should have probably had a food bonus like all food sources collect 5% faster. South India did export spices to all major civs and they could farm and fish all through the year. They need hussar and husbandry if not knights. They need elite battle elephant as well. Right now with good infantry, they can only do static defence. Without any economy bonus, they can’t fight this attrition warfare. They need the castle age mining tech. Without it, they are shafted. In imperial age, Wootz should be applicable to only barrack units. Lets hope these changes can fix their unviable play. Hera put it best “In feudal age, You can go skirmishers against dravidian archer push and if dravidians switch to faster skirmishers just put one scout in to take all those skirms out. With poor economy, they are soon dead in castle age.”
I’d rather have this then wootz steel
I didn’t say remove it
nope. Civ struggles due to the lack of proper mobile generic units to play in castle age. Hand canoneers while a good addition won’t help balance the civ.
A HUGE BUFF overall. A modest buff if Knights are to replace Shrivamsha riders. A lot of people are currently complaining about how OP or Gurjaras in a slightly exaggerated tone but Knight addition without the rebalance of their stables plus Imperial camels will actually make them very broken.
And receive BE?? Its not going to be necessary at all and 5 unit options in stable along with CA, strong uu just makes the civ too OP in terms of options.
Knight-line and Cavalier are needed for the terribly weak Dravidians and Bengalis, not the current S tier Gurjaras and Hindustanis. And just out of curiosity, why switch Gurjara and Hindustani camels? And why give them knights? These civs have very powerful military options/long term eco bonus.
Terrible changes. The current state of Malay elephants shows how situational the discount on weak elephants is. Elephant as such isn’t a feasible option as primary army on most maps and settings. Atleast for civs which get knights, it could be a decent option to mix in early castle age before monks come out. This change doesn’t solve their 1v1 problem.
As far as Malay is concerned, they’re already quite weak. And while BE discount removal won’t impact their open map gameplay much, this could impact them on closed maps and TGs.
Its decent after the shore fish immediately next to the mill or dock runs out. True that its very situational but this could have been fishing ships +15 carry capacity and fishermen 15% faster gathering rate (from OG Indians) instead of +15 carry capacity.
It almost is as of now.
You kinda contradicted yourself. Those changes that you propose doesn’t propel the economy enough to get them much ahead. 5% faster food collection rate fetches you 1 extra food/min/farm and about 50-60 extra resources worth villager time in dark age. While it pulls them a little bit further from being one of worst 5 to probably one of the worst 15, it still doesn’t make the civ usable against most other civs simply because of this lack of usable cavalry. In comparison, Vikings get a much bigger bonus and yet have kts. Even though it lacks several upgrades, its there as an option.
Exactly. That will actually make the civ more usable on some maps.
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Do you know that those my suggestions and discussions are based on @Gaudio3342’s research?
Have you even read his research?
HCs help against Halberdiers when players try to use Elite BE. That’s enough.
Bengalis are already in decent position in many maps, were also picked in the Red Bull Wololo 2022.
They don’t really need so called “proper mobile generic units to play in the Castle Age”.
If Shrivamsha is OP, tweak Shrivamsha’s stats.
Although I think it’s Chakram that really makes the civilization OP and should be tweaked.
Shrivamsha and Knights have different uses, and they are not impossible to exist at the same time.
Not to mention, they don’t have the Cavalier upgrade. The accessibility of Knight is more symbolic than practical.
I already stated I prefer to lose EA to get decent CA rather than receiving BE.
I found that you are very bad at (or maybe deliberately not) reading other people’s opinions carefully, whether in this thread or others.
These two won’t get Knights due to game design, and shouldn’t get Knights due to historical context.
If you just miss the Knight meta, go play other civilizations.
The Imperial Camel of the Hindustanis is the legacy of FE Indians.
The Imperial Camel of the FE Indians is based on the military use of the camel of the Rajputs.
Seeing this question makes me think replying to you is unnecessary.
You don’t even know @Gaudio3342’s research and the purpose of the list of my thoughts.
Again, no Knight for Dravidians.
If Dravidians get BE discount bonus, they will have Elite BE upgrade and have cheap BE with the second armor, which is a pretty decent net buff to make their Stable worth being used especially in the late game.
The problem of BE is a global problem, not a problem for Dravidians only. The Dravidians also don’t need the BE as the main force in the Castle Age. They have Crossbow and even EA.
Trash BE UT would have more influence for Malays on closed maps.
To me, this is even a buff for Malays.
Dravidians are not gonna be getting knights. We have to come to terms with that. We need Dravidians a elephant civ to be able to counter knights in castle age. So I suggested that we change medical corps apply to all military units.
In south India, the mobility was achieved historically using light cavalry. They did not have heavy cavalry. They had elephants which were like tanks breaking into enemy lines using size and armor. Generals mounted elephants in battle to coordinate infantry. AOE2 needs to put elephants in the right light. The battle elephant attack stat(12) is very similar to knight(10) which does not do justice. But due to splash damage we need to live with it. These elephants are not the vegetables we see in AOE2. We need to make sure foot archers cannot walk away after contact with elephants in battle. If you met one in battle at close range, you are that much closer to death. You can’t outrun this behemoth. Elephants are faster than humans. Dravidian battle elephants need to be as fast as elephant archers. Both their speeds need to be 1 tile per sec. This gives elephant civs options to push any cavalry raids in castle age using counter raids. Their higher hp and attack bonus could have the same effect on enemy economy. Elephant civs with these changes can definitely hold their own against heavy cavalry and infantry of enemy units as well.
For dravidians, if resources are going to be a problem, instead of 15+ fish carry, they can have all resources collected 5% faster. Let them convert wood to food, wood to gold or gold to food as per need to produce the elephant mass. Big animals need lot of food man. Armoured elephants and elephant archer can’t have negative armour man. They cost food not wood. armoured elephant speed is enough though.
If dravidians survive in good shape to imperial, they have woots which will easily carry them if game is even with their opponent.
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they were picked on water maps. i’m not convinced about their land map potential.
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Well, Viper drafted Bengalis and there aren’t really water maps picked, so potentially we can see a Bengalis strategy on land map there?
Water maps and closed maps are also part of the game, and we don’t have to judge everything with open land maps.
The Bengalis are not the top civilization, but they are likely no longer the bottom either.
Monk armor and ship regeneration proved their worth in the match.
If they still need something, it may be a small thing, and I think the Hand Cannoneer would fit.
Dravidians may need more, like decent BE bonuses and a better economy, but not Knights.
I think Dravidians and Bengalis could become the new Vikings and Portos for the EW water meta; the wood and vills bonus mean a huge power spike in early game
If that was intended for the devs applauses on them
I still would like to see their water bonus buff somehow
But Dravidians are stronger than Bengalis in water maps. Maybe not in EW settings though.
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The Dock’s population bonus is quite effective in normal mode, especially Nomad, but doesn’t seem to matter in EW mode.
Both the wood bonus and the Barrack bonus seem to encourage the feudal rush, however once the rush is unsuccessful, they don’t have enough decent economy to face the opponent’s later fight back, especially fight back by archers. They can only rely on the Skirmisher bonuse to struggle, but still die at the hands of cavalry. I remember a high-level player (it seems to be Hera) also had mentioned this issue.
They need better economy without better water.