In the midst of the long-lasting fight about “resource-gathering houses”, don’t forget the father of all resource-gathering buildings, with
(1) the most conservative design, where you need huge investments to start up, and need one card to reduce the cost to viable, and three cards (including the church card) + penalty on unit speed even to reach the maximum number.
(2) and yet still almost the worst maximum economy in the late game.
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I am glad more people think the same.
I would love to see a small buff to dutch mainly to their early game
I have been playing dutch for quite a while and being honest I do think the civ is competitive, but the early game macro needs to be crisp and on point, any mistake and you very likely to get punished hard.
Kaiserklein on the esoc forum suggested increasing bonus that dutch vills get when gathering coin.
I personally can’t come up with any good ideas that would buff them without making them too strong.
Maybe give them +50wood on their crate start
Diplomatic envoys need buffs, and the speed is the worst among scouts
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Yes the dutch have problems in (i) the very eary game and in the (II) really late game.
The lack of a musketeer type unit forces you to make 2 types of units from the start even to fight off a crude rush that incorporates huss. This cost + the bank costs force you to either defend well until the Banks pay themselves or you dead. (the 8 pikes shipment here is so important).
There isnt a Rush strat because of the Banks or the lack of musks. The Logistician can mitigate this but only in team games (in 1vs1 you are more competitive in colonial but still cannot “Rush”)
Regarding the super late game, the lack of 50 vils is bad since even with all the upgrades the Banks do not gather at the same rate as fully upgrades vils.
Ideas
Up the vils from 50 to 60 and make Banks gather at a better rate (tulip speculation isnt enough).
Start with an extra settler or extra 100g to make a more competitive age up (since you need to spend lots of vil seconds on gold to produce 2 vils and have a 15 vil age up)
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It should not be forgotten that the Dutch’s economic strategy is entirely up to the bank. If Dutch settlers lose +15% coin work rate, I affirm that there will be no problems if the bank becomes cheaper or generates more coins.
Simply adding a start box will just age up a bit faster and won’t continue to affect the game (since that bonus can be solved somewhat with treasures), Even the Dutch already start with as many boxes as 1f, 2w, 4c.
the first thing to consider is to reduce the bank’s price. 2.75 coin generating building is not too efficient to consume a total of 700 resources. It initially replaces 5 settlers, but after the age-up, market upgrades or cards are only about 3 settlers’ efficiency.
Second, increase the effectiveness of Tulip Speculation, a card that boosts banking efficiency. +20% is ridiculously small. If you expect it to be a problem in supremacy, allow it to increase banks coin income through Capitol.
Even if this is resolved, I expect the Dutch to regain popularity in supremacy and maintain a somewhat decent tier.
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Agree, maybe dutch could have an age 2 fusileer shipment. That might actually help since these units are quite powerful.
I like that idea.
Starting with an extra settler sounds good.
Instead of something like extra coin I would prefer extra 50 wood as it could help reducing villager seconds chopping for wood in transition.
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That could actually make a big difference.
Not just helps to age up faster, if dutch would get +50 for example, that is -50w they have to chop for bank and it can translate to +75 coin or food since wood gather slower.
That can make a big difference between getting a full batch of units out or not.
That could actually be a nerf to dutch since they need this bonus, specially in the early game. It could cause iddle time before they clic up to age 2.
I think maybe reducing banks to 325w/f would not hurt the game too much though
If the bank price goes down to 300 w, you can build a bank and a house even if you don’t have 50w start box. And since the price of the bank is permanent, it also affects the banks that will be built in the future. If all balance could only be resolved by adjusting the starting box, we would have been free from numerous balance controversies.
Anyway, the Dutch try to 2age up with 15 settlers. In other words, the required coin for the Dutch is 200. This can be fully covered even with a coin treasure. If the price of the bank decreases and it’s efficiency increases, there is no need to have an additional coin work rate.
Or a shipment that sends 5 Fusiliers, and adds the option on the Barracks.
Developers don’t have to go the hard way for the Dutch. The Dutch start boxes are fine and their shipments are fine too. Just buff their core building, the bank, and everything is solved.
This still maintains the problem in the late game
Plus the devs dont want to reduce the price of Banks, so we need to think outside that idea.
I think it’s because no one presented a problem with the bank. Looking at the developer’s recent moves, they are first solving the problems that are in issue.
And for that matter I have already answered. Don’t just try to refute the current article, read all the threads step by step again.
I dont think they will do something like that though as this bonus is more exclusive to the Swedish.
Maybe could add the option to train then at the saloon, but still, as dutch you would want to hit age 3 as quickly as you can and spending 300 coin in a single unit could delay things
To compare bank to eco houses, bank should have below characteristics:
- Banks should also provide population.
- Cards for banks should adjust to enhance their gathering or lower their cost more than 30%, plus extra HP (not increase the limit anymore).
If banks don’t have these bonus, it is hard to put Dutch at same level as eco house civs.
These changes are too extreme
Dutch is already a very rewarding civ to play and they actually do quite well in some match ups, including sweden.
What they need is a little boost to their early game which is quite slow.
Hopefully the devs may come up with something, but sadly I don’t see they buffing dutch any time soon to be honest
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For me, the Dutch’s biggest problem is the Envoy. It’s useless. It needs something to set it apart from other scouts and make it more useful, at least in the very early game.
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No
No that’s exclusive to new civs.
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So what would you like to see happen to the Dutch?
+50w start box?
Maybe a bank will be built a little faster, but nothing will change.
Can you train musketeers?
This is a very good solution. Dutch will become the strongest civilization with the musk+skir timing rush after completely defending with musketeers. And Dutch will be constantly listening to nerf requests from other civilization players.
Added various 2age mercenary cards?
Do you have to train mercenaries while consuming coins to train settlers? And more settlers have to work in mines to get coins to hire mercenaries. Dutch will have less other resources.
Additional settlers? An additional 100g box?
What Dutch really need is to quickly build the bank to the limit. One additional settler could not rise the Dutch economy. And if you look at the Portuguese status, Dutch could lose the settlers card in return for having 7 settlers. Dutch are already making rich starts with 100f, 200w and 400g. Wouldn’t other civilizations be jealous of giving the Dutch more boxes?
Rethinking what the Dutch are all about is a difficult path to adjust except for reducing bank prices and increasing bank efficiency. Dutch don’t need an extra box anymore. Dutch don’t need food to train settlers, and 2age up is among the fastest of all civilizations (after Ottomans to be sure). Even if the wood required to build a bank is adjusted to 300w, Dutch economy in the beginning is more comfortable.
And by simply improving the efficiency of Tulip Speculation, a bank upgrade guide for late games and treaty, Dutch economy will be without problems. Why are you trying to make the balance more confusing by changing the design of the Dutch without any problems?
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-Bank cost reduction to 300 Food, 300 Wood.
-Logistician send in 1 Bank Wagon, instead of Early Halberdier.
-Can build a second Saloon (though I think all Euro civs should have this option, with the Dance Hall card).
Except for the second saloon, that would be the best balance change.